From noiro.acs.uci.edu!ucivax!news.claremont.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!hpscdc!hplextra!hpl-opus!hpnmdla!hpsad!smithj Thu Jun 25 11:54:52 PDT 1992 Article: 36403 of rec.music.synth From: smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Jim Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1992 17:17:40 GMT Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Message-ID: <1680213@hpsad.sad.hp.com> Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!ucivax!news.claremont.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!hpscdc!hplextra!hpl-opus!hpnmdla!hpsad!smithj Newsgroups: rec.music.synth References: Lines: 26 >dan@cafws1.eng.uci.edu (Dan Harkless) writes: > > One thing I'd love to see is a device for controlling pitch of analog >oscillators that is a big metal strip with a keyboard legend imprinted on it >that would be monophonic, and which you could slide your finger left and right >as you desired to do variable-speed lag legato passages and finger-wiggling >vibratos. You could, of course, pick up your finger to play staccato passages >as well. It could also have a feature you could turn on where if you left >your finger in the zone of a note for x milliseconds it would lock on to the >common pitch frequency for that note, so you could retain full resolution and >normal tuning. I dunno, _I'd_ like it... This is pretty similar to a nice ribbon controller that Yamahammer used to have on some of their Electone organs as well as on the GX-1 (Didn't the CS-80 also have this, Mike?). It was a long velvet-covered ribbon just above the keyboard. It was set up so that when you first put your finger on it, it had no effect, but rather responded to the movement you made along it relative to the first contact point. It was calibrated to modulate the pitch at the same rate per distance as the keyboard, so if you wanted to slide up an octave, you just slid, say, from C to C. If you wanted to add vibrato, you just wiggled your finger. If you wanted to hammer some fast fourths, you could use a second finger to modulate it. I found it a very nice, facile pitch-bending tool, and wish that some current instrument offered it. Jim Smith smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com Going Up, Going Down, Going Up And Down. From noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!pitt.edu!minerva!metlay Thu Jun 25 11:56:09 PDT 1992 Article: 36406 of rec.music.synth Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!pitt.edu!minerva!metlay From: metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (metlay) Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Message-ID: <2193@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> Date: 25 Jun 92 00:29:13 GMT References: <1680213@hpsad.sad.hp.com> Sender: news+@pitt.edu Organization: Atomic City Lines: 31 In article <1680213@hpsad.sad.hp.com> smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Jim Smith) writes: >>dan@cafws1.eng.uci.edu (Dan Harkless) writes: >> >> One thing I'd love to see is a device for controlling pitch of analog >>oscillators that is a big metal strip with a keyboard legend imprinted on it >This is pretty similar to a nice ribbon controller that Yamahammer used to >have on some of their Electone organs as well as on the GX-1 (Didn't the >CS-80 also have this, Mike?). It was a long velvet-covered ribbon just above >the keyboard. It was set up so that when you first put your finger on it, >it had no effect, but rather responded to the movement you made along it >relative to the first contact point. [...] The idea of a keyboard imprint that accepted sliding finger touch goes back a lot further than the GX-1, young fellow my son. The Ondes Martenot had a monophonic keyboard that was only an imprinted legend: one wore a ring while playing it, and the ring slid along a ribbon suspended across and above the keyboard to change pitch. As for the device you describe, yes, it was also on the CS-60 and CS-80, but vanished in the early 1980s into that mysterious place where all good ideas for synth control appear to go well before their time. I have never actually used one (the only CS-80 I ever played was an old used instrument in terrible shape, and the ribbon was broken), but I would imagine that such a gizmo wouldn't be too hard to rig up to a modern synth with a pedal input. I mean, hell! If you can make money selling something like the Zeebar, f'godsakes.... -- metlay |"The beauty of this instrument versus today's synthesizers is that @minerva. |it goes from DC to 100 kHz. This system has none of what I call phyast. |'padded-cell technology'. It can hurt you. It's the world's most pitt.edu |dangerous synthesizer." -Will Alexander on Emerson's Moog modular. From noiro.acs.uci.edu!network.ucsd.edu!swrinde!gatech!pitt.edu!minerva!metlay Thu Jun 25 15:36:45 PDT 1992 Article: 36469 of rec.music.synth Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!network.ucsd.edu!swrinde!gatech!pitt.edu!minerva!metlay From: metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (metlay) Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Message-ID: <2227@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> Date: 25 Jun 92 20:50:28 GMT References: <1680213@hpsad.sad.hp.com> <2A4A1677.27310@noiro.acs.uci.edu> Sender: news+@pitt.edu Organization: Atomic City Lines: 29 In article <2A4A1677.27310@noiro.acs.uci.edu> dan@cafws2.eng.uci.edu (Dan Harkless) writes: > Wow. Sounds just about like what I was talking about. But, could >someone explain to me just a "ribbon controller" is? I've seen this term a >bunch and do not comprehend it... Ah, callow youth. |-> The ribbon controller is a gizmo that was popular on Moog synths for many years, and is now available only on ONE MIDI keyboard (the Yamaha KX-5, which is in demand for this very reason). It is a ribbon along which you slide your finger. One way from the little bump in the center of the ribbon bends sharp, and the other way bends flat. You can do hammerons, pulloffs, glides, etc., with this device, but unlike the CS-80's ribbon it has a specific zero point rather than noting where you first touch it. This provides a different bag of tricks than the CS 80 had. Keith Emerson has a ribbon controller for the Moog he uses in concert that he runs around with on stage; once he clotheslined himself in the middle of a concert and the resulting jerk made the Moog go bananas. Keith, being Keith, got up off the ground, bowed, and went back to his rig, pretending he'd done it on purpose. |-> He also blew one of his fingernails half off with it once, but that's another story. -- metlay | "The net has been less than worthless as a source of ideas or @minerva. | people to collaborate with on innovative ideas." --J. Bowery phyast. | pitt.edu | "Huh? Are we an anomaly? OK, yeah, we are." --E. Hallgrimsson From noiro.acs.uci.edu!network.ucsd.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscdc!hplextra!hpl-opus!hpnmdla!hpsad!smithj Thu Jun 25 16:54:23 PDT 1992 Article: 36476 of rec.music.synth From: smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Jim Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1992 18:12:10 GMT Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Message-ID: <1680215@hpsad.sad.hp.com> Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!network.ucsd.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscdc!hplextra!hpl-opus!hpnmdla!hpsad!smithj Newsgroups: rec.music.synth References: Lines: 80 metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (metlay) writes: >In article <1680213@hpsad.sad.hp.com> smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Jim Smith) writes: >>>dan@cafws1.eng.uci.edu (Dan Harkless) writes: >>> >>> One thing I'd love to see is a device for controlling pitch of analog >>>oscillators that is a big metal strip with a keyboard legend imprinted on it > >>This is pretty similar to a nice ribbon controller that Yamahammer used to >>have on some of their Electone organs as well as on the GX-1 (Didn't the >>CS-80 also have this, Mike?). It was a long velvet-covered ribbon just above >>the keyboard. It was set up so that when you first put your finger on it, >>it had no effect, but rather responded to the movement you made along it >>relative to the first contact point. [...] > >The idea of a keyboard imprint that accepted sliding finger touch goes back >a lot further than the GX-1, young fellow my son. The Ondes Martenot had >a monophonic keyboard that was only an imprinted legend: one wore a ring >while playing it, and the ring slid along a ribbon suspended across and above >the keyboard to change pitch. I know that, yknow! :-> And let us never forget the Ondioline.... I suppose that the Martenot IS closer to what Dan was talking about, but I like the Yamamama solution better because: 1. it allows for instantaneous jumps along the ribbon (just like the little Moog ribbons like on some Micromoogs do) which I find pretty useful, and 2. it works as an adjunct to a normal keyboard, which I also like. You could create a Martenot-like "ring controller" to plug into a pedal input with just a pot, a ring, some string, and a pulley (of appropriately large diameter) mounted on the pot shaft. >As for the device you describe, yes, it was also >on the CS-60 and CS-80, but vanished in the early 1980s into that mysterious >place where all good ideas for synth control appear to go well before their >time. Sucked under the Corporate Rock, no doubt... >I have never actually used one (the only CS-80 I ever played was an old >used instrument in terrible shape, and the ribbon was broken), but I would >imagine that such a gizmo wouldn't be too hard to rig up to a modern synth >with a pedal input. I mean, hell! If you can make money selling something >like the Zeebar, f'godsakes.... ("You can mount it under the keyboard to create an aftertouch-like response..." "When I press this special key, it plays a little melody!" :-> ) I've toyed with the idea, actually, of doing just that. The electronics would be a pretty simple variation of the classic one-switch-bus duophonic keyboard interface, with an additional timer and sample-and-hold, perhaps. I can knock one of those off with no sweat. The difficult part for me is the actual ribbon. Any ideas out there on how to make a keyboard- length ribbon controller that could be nicely affixed just above an existing synth keyboard? Yamazabba's didn't feel like a taut wire or anything, more like an inverted-V-shaped-cross-section of conductive elastomer under a velvet cover. It sort of folded down when you pressed it. Moog's small ribbon used a taut layer of something that looked like packing tape (maybe a Mylar-fiberglass composite cloth?) with what felt like a wire running up the middle. I've never gotten to touch a longer Moog ribbon. I remember seeing a design in the 70's that involved a guitar string held taut above conductive foam. The same basic circuit that would accomplish this would, by the way, also implement Dan's idea with almost no modification. Except for the feature of locking in to a quantized, in-tune pitch after a moment. Actually, Dan, I don't think you'd really need that feature. I think that there is enough scale (as in the scale of a fretboard) on a full-sized keyboard to allow you to hit accurate pitches with some practice. Heck, the scale is uniform, and much larger than that of a violin! :-> (I suppose if that feature were required, it could be accomplished with a "quantizer" module. You could feed the voltage through an A/D, straight into a D/A, and appropriately scale the inputs and outputs to end up with unity gain but one step per half-note, each step being 1/12th of a volt...) Anyone out there ever actually build a ribbon controller, or have more information on their construction? Jim Smith smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com Going Up, Going Down, Going Up And Down. From noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!polari!smill@polari.online.com Fri Jun 26 09:38:10 PDT 1992 Article: 36491 of rec.music.synth Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!polari!smill@polari.online.com From: smill@polari.online.com Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Message-ID: <1992Jun26.072215.2762@polari> Organization: Seattle Online Public Access Unix (206) 328-4944 References: <2A477556.16687@noiro.acs.uci.edu> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1992 07:22:15 GMT Lines: 29 In article <2A477556.16687@noiro.acs.uci.edu> dan@cafws1.eng.uci.edu (Dan Harkless) writes: > One thing I'd love to see is a device for controlling pitch of analog >oscillators that is a big metal strip with a keyboard legend imprinted on it >that would be monophonic, and which you could slide your finger left and right >as you desired to do variable-speed lag legato passages and finger-wiggling >vibratos. You could, of course, pick up your finger to play staccato passages >as well. It could also have a feature you could turn on where if you left >your finger in the zone of a note for x milliseconds it would lock on to the >common pitch frequency for that note, so you could retain full resolution and >normal tuning. I dunno, _I'd_ like it... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >| Dan Harkless | "The sore in my soul | >| dan@cafws1.eng.uci.edu | The mark in my heart -> Front 242, | >| dharkles@bonnie.ics.uci.edu | Her acid reign..." Tragedy >For You< | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This was done long ago. It's called the "Kinisthetic Input Port" or some such. Available on the Buchla 200 series, perhaps other series as well... It was also sesitive to keyboard pressure in a rather unique way: The keys were actually capacitors that changed their value depending upon the amount of surface area contacting your finger. -- Steven M. Miller "The history of music evolution is smill@polari.online.com not the history of nice guys" smill@online.com -- Anthony Braxton smill%polari@online.com From noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!wupost!darwin.sura.net!gatech!pitt.edu!minerva!metlay Fri Jun 26 09:38:48 PDT 1992 Article: 36493 of rec.music.synth Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!wupost!darwin.sura.net!gatech!pitt.edu!minerva!metlay From: metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (metlay) Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Summary: Building the Perfect Ribbon Message-ID: <2250@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> Date: 26 Jun 92 04:14:29 GMT References: <1680215@hpsad.sad.hp.com> Sender: news+@pitt.edu Organization: Atomic City Lines: 24 In article <1680215@hpsad.sad.hp.com> smithj@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Jim Smith) writes: >I've toyed with the idea, actually, of doing just that. The electronics would >be a pretty simple variation of the classic one-switch-bus duophonic >keyboard interface, with an additional timer and sample-and-hold, perhaps. >I can knock one of those off with no sweat. The difficult part >for me is the actual ribbon. Any ideas out there on how to make a keyboard- >length ribbon controller that could be nicely affixed just above an existing >synth keyboard? [...] How about a strip of force-sensing resistor material? Interlink custom-makes the stuff and has "trial kits." I suppose you could even do this with a rheostat, although that might be kind of bulky.... >Anyone out there ever actually build a ribbon controller, or have more >information on their construction? What he said. -- metlay | "The net has been less than worthless as a source of ideas or @minerva. | people to collaborate with on innovative ideas." --J. Bowery phyast. | pitt.edu | "Huh? Are we an anomaly? OK, yeah, we are." --E. Hallgrimsson From noiro.acs.uci.edu!unogate!mvb.saic.com!network.ucsd.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!darwin.sura.net!paladin.american.edu!auvm!JUPITER.CSD.UNB.CA!AEDWARDS Fri Jun 26 11:21:16 PDT 1992 Article: 36497 of rec.music.synth Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!unogate!mvb.saic.com!network.ucsd.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!darwin.sura.net!paladin.american.edu!auvm!JUPITER.CSD.UNB.CA!AEDWARDS Message-ID: <9206261230.AA07397@jupiter.Sun.CSD.unb.ca> Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1992 09:30:07 ADT Sender: "Redistribution of rec.music.synth" From: Alan Edwards Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Lines: 41 (metlay) writes: (Jim Smith) writes: (Dan Harkless) writes: > >>> > >>> One thing I'd love to see is a device for controlling pitch of analog > >>>oscillators that is a big metal strip with a keyboard legend imprinted on > it [..stuff deleted...] > Anyone out there ever actually build a ribbon controller, or have more > information on their construction? > I used to work for an automation company, and one of our robots had touch pads to control the motion. One was a strip, and one was a pad giving x-y. The pad was right on the robots arm, so you could put your finger on it and move the arm with very precise touch control .You put your finger down on the center and moved it in the direction you wanted the arm to go, and it would basically try to keep the center of the pad under your finger. The farther away you got from the center, the faster it would move. Very small movements could be controlled by rolling your finger. As I recall, these were resistive (10k?) pads that were off the shelf, but the company would do custom work. A while back I called my old boss to see if he could dig up the companies name, since I wanted to put one of these on a MIDI controller that I am building. He is away now, but I will keep bugging him, and let the list know what I find out. Alan ================================================================================ Alan Edwards UNB Physics internet: aedwards@unb.ca Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To err is human...to blame your computer for your mistakes is even more human. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ================================================================================ From noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!news.bbn.com!olivea!hal.com!mgm Fri Jun 26 11:22:38 PDT 1992 Article: 36510 of rec.music.synth Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!news.bbn.com!olivea!hal.com!mgm From: mgm@hal.com (Mark McLemore) Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Message-ID: <12fdh9INN8ue@hal.com> Date: 26 Jun 92 15:36:09 GMT References: <1680215@hpsad.sad.hp.com> <2250@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> Organization: HaL Computer Systems Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: tycho.hal.com >How about a strip of force-sensing resistor material? Interlink custom-makes >the stuff and has "trial kits." I suppose you could even do this with a >rheostat, although that might be kind of bulky.... Or you could use a strip of the conducting foam that MOS chips are usually shipped with -- it's resistance decreases almost linearly as it's depressed. I once made a pressure-sensor for a homemade modular synth by applying a conductive adhesive to tin foil and glueing it to both sides of a piece of conducting foam: Pressure A o---------+ | | V =<|>=========================== Foil ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Conductive Foam =<|>=========================== | Foil B o---------+ As I recall, the resistance between points A and B varied from about 300 ohms to 10 ohms as pressure was applied to the foil. I hooked this into a simple op-amp circuit that used the varying resistance to create a scalable control voltage. One problem though, you might have to encapsulate it in rubber: a finger applied to the foil would invariably cause AC hum. It seems like there should be a way to modify this to create a custom touch-sensitive ribbon controller. -- \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ Mark McLemore \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ HaL Computer Systems \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ mgm@hal.com \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ Austin, Texas \_ \_ From noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!mmm.serc.3m.com!pwcs!cdsmn!plate Mon Jun 29 13:12:39 PDT 1992 Article: 36583 of rec.music.synth Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!mmm.serc.3m.com!pwcs!cdsmn!plate From: plate@cdsmn.mn.org (Doug Plate) Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Message-ID: <1992Jun28.042238.13333@cdsmn.mn.org> Reply-To: plate@cdsmn.UUCP (Doug Plate) Organization: Dicomed Inc, Burnsville, MN. References: <1680215@hpsad.sad.hp.com> <2250@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> <12fdh9INN8ue@hal.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 92 04:22:38 GMT Lines: 33 In article <12fdh9INN8ue@hal.com> mgm@hal.com (Mark McLemore) writes: >>How about a strip of force-sensing resistor material? Interlink custom-makes >>the stuff and has "trial kits." I suppose you could even do this with a >>rheostat, although that might be kind of bulky.... > >Or you could use a strip of the conducting foam that MOS chips are usually >shipped with -- it's resistance decreases almost linearly as it's depressed. >I once made a pressure-sensor for a homemade modular synth by applying >a conductive adhesive to tin foil and glueing it to both sides of a >piece of conducting foam: [...] > >It seems like there should be a way to modify this to create a custom >touch-sensitive ribbon controller. > >-- > \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ Mark McLemore \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ HaL Computer Systems \_ \_ > \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ mgm@hal.com \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ Austin, Texas \_ \_ I played with this a few times, but the foam never seemed to spring back into place fast/consistently enough. Isn't the conductive foam idea, as well as the stretched wire ribbon idea, outlined in Hal Chamberlain's "Musical Applications for Microprocessors"? I once made a pressure sensor from a Radio Shack piezo element. My circuit never worked the way I designed it, but by dumb luck and experimentation, I did get it to work (but I couldn't figure out why it worked!!) Unfortunately, the output voltage would drift, so I gave up on it. Looking back on the circuit, I think there was more of a capacitive effect happening, rather than the piezo electric effect that I was shooting for. Boringly Yours, Doug Plate From noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!auvm!JUPITER.CSD.UNB.CA!AEDWARDS Mon Jun 29 13:14:29 PDT 1992 Article: 36614 of rec.music.synth Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU Path: noiro.acs.uci.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!auvm!JUPITER.CSD.UNB.CA!AEDWARDS Message-ID: <9206291436.AA27394@jupiter.Sun.CSD.unb.ca> Newsgroups: rec.music.synth Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1992 11:36:50 ADT Sender: "Redistribution of rec.music.synth" From: Alan Edwards Subject: Re: Alternate Controller idea (Analog) Lines: 44 I wrote: > (metlay) writes: > (Jim Smith) writes: > (Dan Harkless) writes: > >>> > >>> One thing I'd love to see is a device for controlling pitch of analog > >>>oscillators that is a big metal strip with a keyboard legend imprinted on > it [..stuff deleted...] > Anyone out there ever actually build a ribbon controller, or have more > information on their construction? > >I used to work for an automation company, and one of our robots had touch > pads to control the motion. One was a strip, and one was a pad giving x-y. [ ...detail deleted... ] > I wanted to put one of these on a MIDI controller that I > am building. [...] I will let the list know what I find out. > My (ex)boss just got back to me on the touch pads, and here is the info: Soft-Pot : linear (1-d) available in a variety of sizes 10k is typical can also have 0 dead spot in center, with resistance in both directions. Soft-Pad : square pad (2-d) same otherwise. They use membrane switch technology, and so they are sealed against dirt and moisture contamination. My recollection is that they are pretty rugged. The company is Spectra Symbol Corp, and they are in Salt Lake City, Utah. Perhaps someone on the net closer to there could phone for a complete address and price info. (please?) Alan ================================================================================ Alan Edwards UNB Physics internet: aedwards@unb.ca Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would ever get done ================================================================================