# shiloh

Category: Animal House

## Post 1 by shelly and shiloh (Zone BBS Addict) on Tuesday, 05-Jun-2007 17:49:41

hi there,
okay i did ask pilot if they'd send a trainer out to work with me and shiloh and there answer was know that they wouldnt do that.
I did call them today and i told them how unpredictable her behavior is when we are around other dogs. they told me as long as she eventually stops barking and growling that theres hope for her.
the head trainer ray said that she is just a slow learner and that just because i have had her for six months he thinks it'll take another six months.
He also said that i should keep the prong collar on her for as long as it takes to get her to stop barking.He also said that i shouldnt let her off the leash at my boyfriends house in his backyard to play with his dog even if i am out in the yard with her.
He said that she shouldnt be let off leash to run around that she shouldn't have to run around as long as i take her on walks.
But when we go to my boyfriends house is the only place she gets let off of the leash and off of the harness.
Isn't it good for her to have another dog to play with?
I mean she cant be working all the time can she?sometimes the trainers are so confusing like today they are.
I know for a fact that she shouldnt bark and growl at other service dogs, i dont want people to complain or for her to hurt me or anybody else.I've done everything i can, but apparently the school seems to think that all we need is time if she doesn't bark all the time she's an awesome guide its just her dog phobia or whatever it is that i am at a loss as to what to do about.
I've tried the pennys in the milk carton the schools suggestion, correcting her even when she didn't need to be corrected the trainers made me do that at the school, the gentle leader, and even the prong collar and a smart collar.
I love her and don't want to give up on her because she is sooo young, because i know what its like to have people give up on me to tell me i cant handle class loads or that i shouldnt get a guide dog to begin with that was from my state rehab counsellor and my mobility teacher.
But i think my outdoor orientation has improved since i've gotten shiloh i pay more attention to my surroundings than i did with my cane.Sorry for the long ranting post i'm lonely and dont have nobody to hang out with or talk to.

## Post 2 by Selena Fan (Account disabled) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 1:06:50

Dear Miss Shelly, I have a regular dog named Daisy! She was abused by her former owner! She has attacked dogs nothing provoked her! When I know a dog will come over say my aunt's dog I give Daisy the stay camand and she stays in my room! I like reading this long board post! If I can be of any help to you please let me know! You shouldn't have to give up on Shiloah! Your friend, Hope

## Post 3 by tunedtochords (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 3:10:08

Oh wow. It's completely ridiculous that Pilot won't send a trainer out to work with you. You are obviously having problems, and their suggestions aren't helping. I've never heard of a school refusing to provide follow-up. I wish I had some advice for you. Sometimes, there just isn't anything you can do to fix the situation. If you do end up retiring Shiloh, I strongly recommend looking into another school, since Pilot obviously isn't giving you and Shiloh the support you need. I'm pretty much appalled by their conduct.

## Post 4 by Musical Ambition (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 10:43:26

I agree. This is absolutely appalling. They must've gotten new trainers working at that school, because, as I said in a different board post, they had no trouble sending a trainer out to someone I knew, so that the person and their dog could get more in depth training in extremely crowded areas. I can't believe they refused you the same. That is completely and totally unacceptable. I received my guide dog from that school ten years ago, and back then, it was an incredible school. I had such a wonderful experience there, and it's such a shame that they've become what they seem to have become.
As far as your dog's behavior goes, you should look into finding a trainer in your area, who works on behavioral issues. If your dog is a great guide, and the whole trouble is just her lashing out and barking at other dogs/people, then there must be hope for her, and a well qualified professional can help.

## Post 5 by tunedtochords (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 17:11:00

I agree. I know someone who got her first two guides from Pilot, and they were great dogs. But because of several changes that took place at the school, she refused to go back. (She was one of my classmates at The Seeing Eye.)
Definitely look into a private trainer. This is so ridiculous; you shouldn't even have to go this route.

## Post 6 by shelly and shiloh (Zone BBS Addict) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 18:02:51

yes the school did get new trainers a few years ago. there two head trainers are ray and jay. pam is the senior trainer below ray.
Steve hoyt is there recruiter the guy that helps get people to come to pilot for dogs he also helps with training when theres lots of students like he did when i was there. he was awesome.
Well just a bit ago when me and shiloh were coming in from being outside at the relief area for her, we cameacross a small opsolopsa dog named jack, his owner did not live in my building she let him and shiloh sniff and shiloh and the little dog were even licking each other.
So i don't think its a protection issue cause the little dogs owner said that he liked being around big dogs and maybe shiloh could tell that he liked her cause as soon as shiloh saw him she started wagging her tail but she didn't bark or growl.
I even had the prong collar on her to.
So i don't know does this mean theres hope for her possibly.
A private trainer would be expensive and i don't know where there is one. i did look in to an obedience class ast a pet store called pet smart, but they charge ninety dollars for just the obedience class and all she needs work on is her dog being around issue.I'm not giving up on her she turns two in september 5, you know maybe with age she'll start to do better around other dogs.Because the barking and growling doesn't happen very offten.She doesn't like pit bulls very much, my boyfriends roommate has a pit bull and they don't get along real well so we have to keep the pit bull in his roommates room when i'm over at his house with shiloh.
I talked to the head of traing well he's the director of the school now jay, today actually and he was saying that he didn't think that shiloh would ever hurt another dog and that the prong collar is meant to prevent it.
He also said that i shouldnt get one of those know barking collars.
I'm determined to get shiloh through this, I dont want o go through all this just to get a new dog and have to deal with its personality changing once i get it home like shiloh did although she had a lot of these problems at the school and trainers didn't do nothing about it.
The growling at people and at sounds and at the other guide dogs sometimes was her biggest problem at the school.
Heres my question why would you correct a guide dog iif its sleeping when its not growling or barking. the school made me correct her even when another guide dog would bark.
i've written enough of my ranting hope this helps any. i'll keep you guys up to date on my baby.shelly and shiloh

## Post 7 by tunedtochords (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 19:09:27

You wrote:
Heres my question why would you correct a guide dog iif its sleeping when its not growling or barking. the school made me correct her even when another
guide dog would bark.
That's a really good question. I have never heard of that method, and I'm not sure what it would achieve, except making the dog wary of being punished for things it didn't do. And this is extremely bad. Overcorrecting a dog who is sensitive can break its spirit. And then you have a dog who will not guide well. You have a dog who will no longer intelligently disobey. And this is a problem.
Perhaps someone who knows more about training can chime in, but from my perspective, that is just ridiculous.

## Post 8 by SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today (LivingLifeAndLovingItToo) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 21:37:29

First of all, any school that refuses to send out a trainer when one of their dog-handler teams is having problems does not deserve to be called a guide dog school, as this can put the public, other dogs, the guide dog it's self & the handler of the guide in danger. They are extremely flagging in their obligation to you & your dog if they refuse to send up a trainer & waiting for the barking to stop "eventually" is not an option: it just is not a solution or an option whatsoever. As for being a slow learner, erm, no, I think not. She is obviously quite intelligent or she would not have been trained as a guide dog. There really is no such thing as a slow learner, either a dog is a quick learner, or it is a quick learner that is stubborn and simply chooses not to follow the commands and behaviors that they have learned. If she is not obeying you, continuing to do the same thing over and over again will not help, either you need to get rid of her or find some drastically different training method or training tool to implement. As for not letting her loose at your boyfriend's house. If it is a fenced-in yard then you should certainly let her run free in the yard for some excersize. Taking your dog for walks while working them is excersize, but not stress relief. She needs to be a dog for God's sake. She needs to have down time with no harness, no prong-collar and no leash, to relax and get some of her stress and tention out. If she has that much trouble with other dogs then work with her in the back yard alone, that is with out another dog. Here the school contradicts it's self. They told you she was not really dangerous, that they didn't think she would ever hurt another dog. Well, then why don't they trust her running loose, in a fenced in back yard, with your supervission, with another dog? Obviously there's a contridiction here. If they really and truly think that she is safe then they would encourage you to let her off leash in controled circomstances for some positive socialization with another dog, but by telling you not to do that, they are proving them selves wrong, and saying with their instructions that they do indeed think she has the potential to harm another dog, especially off leash. Ok, now to address something else that you wrote that is worrying me. "But when we go to my boyfriends house is the only place she gets let off of the leash and off of the harness." Now, does that mean that you keep her harness on all of the rest of the time? If that is the case then there is a real problem right there, for example, you should never releave your dog, that is take them out to go to the bathroom while they are in harness, because that can lead to them having accidents and releaving while working, while in harness. Also you should never feed or water your dog while they are in harness, as this will lead to problems with them scavinging, drinking from puddles, or begging for food while in harness. And, surely you have her off of harness while she is on tie-down? You should never, if you can avoid it, leave your dog in a crate or on tie-down while it is in harness. Also, I assume that when she sleeps on tie down or loose in your room with the door closed, or in a crate, whichever it may be, that she is not in harness? Because you should not let a dog run loose in harness, or expect it to sleep in harness. The harness is a very special tool, that is meant only to be used while the dog is working, that way it remains unique, special and different in the eyes of your dog. If the harness is on through all or even some of those activities then no wonder she is having problems, if a dog is not allowed to be a dog, a regular old pet dog some of the time they will become stressed & ultimately their work will suffer. So, basically, unless she is working, that is leading you, or sitting with you in public, IE at work or in school, she should not be in harness. And you can certainly let her socialize with other dogs, and let other people pet her, but never, ever in harness, especially with the problems she is exhibiting. Ok, another thing, you said,I know for a fact that she shouldnt bark and growl at other service dogs." Honey, she shouldn't growl and bark at any dogs, service or pet, they are both equally serious. It's no worse to bark at a service dog, just because it is a service dog, she may be quite smart, but she does not know the difference between pet and service. That is, it doesn't matter what dogs she is barking at, pet or service, male or female, big or small: it is all equally serious and should be treated as such. As for correcting her when she is not misbehaving, that is truly assanine. I am familiar with all sorts of training methods, for guide dog training and for general obedience, and that is a very foolish concept, not to mention potentially damaging. It makes no sense and it will make even less sense to the dog, if anything it will make her dislike or mistrust you, make her nervous and unsure or defiant and unresponsive. I would be very interested to hear them try to explain this training method, because frankly it sounds like a ludicris idea and one that might ruen many wonderful dogs in future if they continue to practice. Honey, don't correct her unless she is barking, lunging, trying to riggle away while on a down stay, jumping or growling. Never correct her when she is doing nothing wrong, it is mean, unfair and it will confuse the dog. Think about it, if someone was always telling you, "No. No. No." all day long, even when you were doing nothing wrong, then when you did do something wrong and they said "No." you wouldn't know if they really meant it, or for what reason they were saying it. If anything, praise her calmly when she is just sleeping or laying there behaving, don't correct her. Then, when she does misbehave, really let her have it, but only when she is misbehaving. You should not have to take her to an outside trainer as it is very expensive, and you should not have to pay out of pocket for something that is the school's fault. Also, only a certified guide dog trainer should work with your dog, because there are some aspects of training and working with a guide dog that are different from or even contrary to the training and handeling of pet dogs or even that of other types of service dogs. A perfectly nice, well-intentioned, compitant dog trainer who is not familiar with guide dogs might tell you something that is incorrect, that is, correct in general, but not at all so, for guide dogs. As for Pet Smart: hun, she doesn't need obedience training, this is a behavioral issue, not obedience, plus putting her in a class with a bunch of untrained pet dogs is not a good idea at all if she is showing dog agression. You should force the school to come and help you, and if they will not, either return or retire the dog, because with out help of some sort she will never be a suitable guidedog. It is the schools responsibility & obligation to help you, but if they will not then you really have no recourse. If it isn't working after six months, waiting a year is not going to change anything, unless you have a new plan of action, time will not help in and of it's self, something else needs to be done. If you just wait for her to get older and for time to pass you will just have a slightly older dog, with the same agression and behavioral issues that it had when it was months or even years younger. The passage of time will do nothing, only hard work and help from the school will accomplish anything. I know what it can be like not to have someone with whom to talk, especially about important things like this, and you can feel free to contact me via email or private quick note any time if you would like to talk about this in person. My mother has had guide dogs for over thirty years and I am an experienced guide dog handler and petdog handler & trainer my self.

## Post 9 by tunedtochords (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 06-Jun-2007 22:10:18

Ah, Heather, I was waiting for you to come out of the woodwork on this one.

## Post 10 by Selena Fan (Account disabled) on Thursday, 07-Jun-2007 5:30:59

Miss Shelly it's none of my business but was Shiloah abused? She makes me think of my baby Daisy! Your friend, Hope

## Post 11 by Musical Ambition (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Thursday, 07-Jun-2007 11:44:05

I agree with post eight. I also have experience in the training of dogs, and what she says, is very true. You must be adamant about Pilot helping you and your dog. It's completely appalling that they're refusing to do so. How can they consider themselves a wonderful guide dog school, if they don't care to help with the students that go there? You said that they have gotten a few new trainers over the past couple of years. I remember Jay, Ray, and steve from when I was there back in 97, and it just sounds like so much has changed with this school. It's completely ridiculous. If they continue to refuse you the help that you need with the training of your dog, then you really need to retire her, or get a new dog. No one who gets a guide dog should have to go through this. It's not your responsibility to train her. As far as why they told you to correct her while another dog barked, even though she didn't do anything, please, don't ever do that. If your dog isn't doing anything wrong, then there is no need for her to be corrected. I can't believe they told you to do such a thing. However, I can completely understand it if they told you to just be aware of what your dog does. Stay focused and pay close attention to her reactions, and be on guard, just in case. But to correct her when she does nothing wrong? That's a big no no in my book. I know you don't want to get rid of your dog. Believe me, I know what a strong bond you develop with your animals, but you also need to really think about your safety, the dog's safety, and the safety of the public, whether it be humans or other animals. From what you say, it really does sound as if there is hope for your dog. You just need to be adamant about Pilot working with you on this.

## Post 12 by shelly and shiloh (Zone BBS Addict) on Thursday, 07-Jun-2007 13:39:28

okay heres my decition. since ray and jay both think i should give shiloh more time here in saint paul i ahve decided to call and talk to steve.
He was really nice the few times i had him as my trainer.And even when he did get mad he usually had an explanation why he was mad.
So we will see if they bring me and shiloh back fro more training.hopefully it'll work.
shelly and shiloh.

## Post 13 by shelly and shiloh (Zone BBS Addict) on Thursday, 07-Jun-2007 14:44:20

okay heres what i sent to steve i hope its efective enough. i didn't want to make it to long.
hi there,
I am writing to you because my guide dog shiloh needs more training around
dogs. She has potential to be an awesome guide dog, but she can't be as
effective if she keeps growling and barking at dogs. she doesn't always growl at
dogs, she does get along with some of them. But without a cited person around to
tell me how she reacts i can't help her as much as i'd like to.
She does really well around people and she does good with dogs once i let her
sniff them out when she is on her leash.
But there aren't always going to be times when i can let her off leash to meet
the other dogs. I've talked to ray and jay about it, and they told me to just
keep using the prong collar and to give her more time that she might just be a
slow learner.
I don't want to give her up, she is so young and i know it has to be something
that makes her growl and bark at some dogs and not to others.
I don't think she is trying to protect me because she doesn't bark and growl all the time.
I've even been getting complaints from the people in my building that there trying to get me and shiloh kicked out.
I love her and my family is just starting to accept her and let me go with them
with her when we go places. I'm at a loss as to how else to help her other than what i've been doing bringing
her to places with lots of dogs and showing her that they won't hurt her or
me. But i've got to consider my safty and her safty and other peoples and dogs
safty as well.
So i'm giving you guys an option because i know you guys don't like to bring a
guide dog back for good, i'm asking for more training with her. So please help
me make her the best guide dog she can be.
Thanks for reading,
Shelly and shiloh,

## Post 14 by DeviousAngel (Generic Zoner) on Sunday, 17-Jun-2007 16:42:18

Oh my god!!!! my dog Sheri, she's a golden, and I just got her, she has the same birthday as your Shilo I sigust, that you keep taking her by other dogs, and ever time she barks... high collar her, my first dog did that stuff, pilot isn't the best school, but if she stops barking eventually it will come to an end, its possible that its testing, when did you get her I think I have heard about you from someoen else that I jsut whet to dog school with, remember they told us that dogs will test us, so its maybe her way of seeing what she can get away with...
I would love to help more feel free to send me a message. or msn me if you would like, I have had two dogs from there and I love Sheri loads... and I would love to see if I can halp you with shilo.private

## Post 15 by shelly and shiloh (Zone BBS Addict) on Monday, 18-Jun-2007 18:30:21

hi,
well since i've had shiloh home i only correct her when she does something wrong. your right its horribly mean dn it doesn't make sense to correct her when she isn't doing nothing.
Know i dont keep her in harness when she is sleeping, she sleeps next to my bed on her pillow with my door closed.
I don't relieve her in harness either i know better than that.
I've still been letting her play with boyfriends black lab because she needs to be a dog and they have so much fun together.
Pilot dogs is bringing me back there on July 8 to see if we can figure out why shebarking and growling at other dogs. for a week.I'm not sure if she is testing me when she barks andgrowls at other dogs but i guess its possible.
But its not a very safe way to test me i don't think.
Wish us luck,
Your friends shelly and shiloh,

## Post 16 by DeviousAngel (Generic Zoner) on Monday, 18-Jun-2007 20:25:53

Shelly, I am glad to hear that they are going to bring you back, another bit of advice I was given today, was if she starts barking, correct her, but if she stops no matter what... praise her up... keep praising until she starts barking again, at that point correct again. I got this advice from a person who has had two different dogs from pilot, and both of them were very good dogs, she has had her current guide for ten years, and he's a really good dog. I hope this helps.
Maria

## Post 17 by Musical Ambition (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 19-Jun-2007 9:46:26

I'm so glad that they're bringing you guys back to the school to work on this issue. I hope everything goes well for you, and that the problem will be fixed. As mentioned above, be sure to give your dog plenty of praise when she does something good. Even if she's just lying there being a good dog, give her praise. Praise is a wonderful thing, and it lets them know that they're doing right. I wish you both luck, and be sure to keep us updated.

## Post 18 by DeviousAngel (Generic Zoner) on Tuesday, 26-Jun-2007 23:02:04

I totally agree with the above post, no mattter what it is, even if its not llooking up when the other dogs bark, praize praize... its all in the way you communicate with the golden girl, I have issues with it, so I am totally with you there.
hope it works out, keep us up dated I hope you can fix it if she's anything like my Sheri she's wonderful.

## Post 19 by SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today (LivingLifeAndLovingItToo) on Wednesday, 27-Jun-2007 10:20:01

Oh, thank God. They're finally helping you out. Now you and Shillo will have a real chance as a guide dog team. I wish you both much luck. Try your best, don't get discouraged, but be realistic. Remember, you are the consumer, the school is serving you, not the other way around. If you feel that it is not working and you want another dog, don't be afraid to ask for one. If you want a different dog, but from another school, remember that that is your decision and they have no right to judge or falt you for that. If you do decide to retire her, but want to keep her or help find her a home your self, instead of letting them do it for you, then be firm and communicate that. And, best case scenereo: if you want to keep working with Shillo, Make that clear. You make the decissions. You are in control here, or at least you are over ninety percent in control, as well it should be.

## Post 20 by SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today (LivingLifeAndLovingItToo) on Wednesday, 27-Jun-2007 10:29:19

Oh, and PS, to Selena Fan. No, I don't think she's been abused. They don't use shelter dogs for guide dogs. Well, there are a few service dog, not guide dog, schools that do that, but all of the guide dog schools breed their own puppies. A few accept an extremely limited number of doaner dogs, but these usually come from outside breeders and enter the foster or puppy raising program of the school between eight and twelve weeks of age. Therefore it is almost impossible that a guide dog would have been abused, for several reasons. A. The guide dog school very, very closely monitors their puppy breeders, puppy raisers and trainers. No one could get away with abusing one of these wonderful dogs. There are just too many checks and balances preventing that. B. If the dog was abused it would be caught early on and the dog would either be pulled from training or highly and intensively re-evaluated to see if it were still an acceptable candidate for being placed. and... C. This behavior is indicative of dog agression, lack of early socialization or just possibly, but not likely a prior attack on Shillo by another dog, but not of abuse or neglect by a human.

## Post 21 by wild orca (Zone BBS Addict) on Sunday, 01-Jul-2007 19:38:55

I also have a guide dog, and I love him a lot. If you don't feel comfortable with the dog, or don't feel safe, tell the school that. I'm glad their finally helping you out, but I'm a little worried that they took this long. I know it's hard to give up a dog, I had to myself, but if your not safe with her, that may be the best thing. I hope evrything works out for youKim