# Windows 8 and Accessibility

Category: accessible Devices

## Post 1 by matt89 (Generic Zoner) on Monday, 13-Aug-2012 3:50:00

Hi, I want to get everyones take on narorator and windows 8. Will narorator be the windows equivalent to voice over? I'm running the consumer preview of windows 8 and so far I think narorator is greatly enhanced. It now has object navigation and a ton of new commands.

## Post 2 by forereel (Just posting.) on Monday, 13-Aug-2012 13:58:21

Might be good, but why deal with less when you can have more for the same price?
Even Microsoft suggest using a 3RD party screen reader. NVDA works great, and is free as well, so you don't have to pay for one to do the little narrator does.
NVDA does that and more.
Narator is a tool to get you going in my opinion, not to keep you going.

## Post 3 by matt89 (Generic Zoner) on Thursday, 16-Aug-2012 17:16:14

well since so many people use windows, it would be nice to walk up to any computer and have a full on screen reader without having to install third party screen readers, i relly like nvda, but how will using a tablet work? i dont think any screen reader will be ported to windows 8 tablets any time soon, and microsoft is probably waiting until narrator is more functional to recomend using it as a primary screen reader, maybe wishful thinking, but i hope narrator develops into something comparable to voiceover

## Post 4 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Thursday, 16-Aug-2012 21:00:52

Personally, I doubt that will ever happen. Microsoft isn't known for their enthusiasm when it comes to accessibility. We're lucky to have even the little that we do from them!

## Post 5 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 16-Aug-2012 21:29:39

Actually Microsoft strives to make things accessible for computers. They relize they can't have it all, because when they do people complain that they are taking over and starving other business. That is why 3RD party screen readers will remain I think.

## Post 6 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Thursday, 16-Aug-2012 22:25:20

I have really never heard of them making sincere efforts. Certainly not when compared to Apple, anyway. I may not like touchscreens, or even the interacting feature of Voiceover on the Macbook, but they really are miles ahead of Microsoft in the accessibility department. But to be fair, Microsoft does at least allow development of third party software, whereas Apple forces people to use Voiceover.

## Post 7 by matt89 (Generic Zoner) on Friday, 17-Aug-2012 5:42:56

i THINK microsoft IS STARTING TO REALIZE THAT ACCESSIBILITY CAN HELP THEM SELL TO MORE CUSTOMERS. i DON'T SEE jAWS OR wINDOWS eYES BEING AROUND FOR TO LONG NOW THAT nvda AND HOPEFULY NARRATOR WILL BE AS SUFFICIENT. iF jAWS AND wINDOW eYES DO SURVIVE, THEY WILL ONLY BE USED BY PEOPLE WHO CANNOT ADAPT TO NEW TECHNOLOGY AND THEREFORE MUST REMAIN IN THEIR COMFORT ZONE. i'LL NEVER PAY FOR A SCREEN READER, IT'S REDICULOUS ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE FREE ALTERNATIVES.

## Post 8 by matt89 (Generic Zoner) on Friday, 17-Aug-2012 5:52:25

Sorry for the caps lol, Apple already has a fully functional screen reader, so they don't need to allow development of third party solutions. Microsoft had no reason to deny third party development of real screen readers since narrator was useless. If you look at the narrator window in Windows 8, their are a wide variety of commands. It even supports reading what's under the mouse, this tells me that narrator will soon evolve into a full screen reader. If that happens, organizations like DOR will see the opportunity to save thousands of dollars and encourage everyone to use narrator. That's why I really don't see expensive screen reading technology being very prevalent within the next few years.

## Post 9 by Siriusly Severus (The ESTJ 1w9 3w4 6w7 The Taskmaste) on Friday, 24-Aug-2012 15:17:00

nah, don't think so, lets start at the beginning shall we? we can blame the nfb for this narrator crap! this terrible mess called the narrator. they were ready to do a good job with narrator if it wasn't for the nfb being stupid. because of that silly lawsuit about them being a monopoly they are unable to do it. they are not enthusiastic because all these blind people not the majority but this nfb crap is stopping them. they were originally ready for it, but these people were complaining that we should give third parties a chance and that blind developers can do it better then there own, so they have to be at this miserable stage of development as they are right now. I am sure after you get sued for doing the right thing you might not be so enthusiastic anymore for it either.

## Post 10 by crazy mike (gold master) on Friday, 24-Aug-2012 15:43:36

I see a few things.
Narator will be good someday for day to day use but if you are like me and are in the IT field, Their are still going to be things that microsoft doesn't want to deal with. Such as making narator work with third party apps.

## Post 11 by rat (star trek rules!) on Saturday, 25-Aug-2012 2:40:01

if microsoft, supposedly the most powerful company n the computer world is afraid of the NFB why has't apple just rooled over and died? Maybe the NFB had a part but microsoft needs to step up to the plate too.

## Post 12 by matt89 (Generic Zoner) on Sunday, 18-Nov-2012 9:49:46

I wasn't aware that the NFB told Microsoft to leave screen reading technology to third party developers, now im pissed, apple is showing everyone that you don't need to be an AT vendor to produce a fully capable screen reader. Thanks a lot NFB, fucking assholes.

## Post 13 by starfly (99956) on Monday, 19-Nov-2012 9:55:39

This is why I call the NFB "national fuck up for the blind."

## Post 14 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Tuesday, 20-Nov-2012 12:13:52

I wasn't aware of that either, bt I'm not one bit surprised. And I agree that, unless things change drastically within the next few years third-party screen readers are gonna be around for a while yet, especially with Window-Eyes offering the payment plans that it does. Greedom Science Fiction has never done this and probably never will. As for why Apple didn't roll over and die in response to the NFB, the NFB probably never really considered them to be any real threat since up to that point their computers were never really all that accessible.

## Post 15 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 20-Nov-2012 19:19:24

Well the NFB had a point. Window Eyes, and Freedom Scientific employ many blind persons, or try to, so on that score it was a good choice.
Next, it seems that, at least with Freedom, they have been really working with Microsoft to keep and make things accessible for us.
I say this because I've been using Windows 8 for several days now, and as far as accessibility it is beautiful.
I can't speak for Window Eyes, but Jaws is a good match for the OS, just like Windows 7. Microsoft has now posted key strokes on the website, and the Apps are posted in the store as accessible or not.
I can't say how these things work with a touch screen, but the ones that are marked accessible work smoothly.
We had Skype, a program many of us rely on purchased by Microsoft, and the accessibility continues with each version. Both Freedom and GW have scripts for it, and even without the scripts it is useable. Not good, but you can do it.
I would say that if Microsoft included a capable screen reader in to the OS they'd probably put that in the pro version, so we'd still have to pay more, as we do, for Apple products, to get it.

## Post 16 by HauntedReverie (doing the bad mango) on Tuesday, 04-Dec-2012 21:47:49

So now that 8 has been out for a while with the option of Jaws 14 to use with it, I have a couple questions for anyone attempting to use the OS. My voc rehab gave me a windows 8 machine with Jaws 14 and said, "Here ya go." for the most part it's OK, but I do have two specific questions at the moment.
1. How do you send things as shortcuts to the desktop? I got documents and computer there via the file explorer, but things like Skype and internet explorer, I can't find an option via the start menu.
2. dear god how do you navigate skype? I managed to make a call and see my chat history, but that's about it.
Is there anything at all I can do to make the process a bit more manageable, or is my best bet to reformat the machine back to 7?

## Post 17 by Rubber Duck (Zone BBS Addict) on Friday, 07-Dec-2012 10:34:48

I am not surprised to hear this about the NFB lawsuit about them being a monopoly and discoraging them from developing narrator as a screen reader. This really ticks me off, look at how many blind people were shut out for years because they could not afford a screen reader. If it weren't for this, we would be able to use any computer just by hitting a few command keys, instead we have to be put at a huge disadvantage creating a divide between the blind and the sighted once again. I would love to find out more about this law suit, do you have any further information about it?

## Post 18 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 08-Dec-2012 12:03:56

Haunted you ask 2 large questions, but there easy really.
First, about your Skype. Go to www.skype.com and download the regular version of Skype. The Skype that is on the start screen is best used for touch screens, so you need the Skype for desktops.
Install the latest Skype scripts and it works just like always. You can even use it pretty much without them, but it is best with.
Now to putting things on your desktop, here is the short version.
On the start screen get to the thing you want on the desktop. It can't be an app, but a program. You'll understand after you try this.
Press your applications key arrow right or left to open file location I believe it says. Click that and do exactly what you did to put it on the desktop with Windows 7. If it is not a file withen a program, such as Office you'll find all the rest of the program files arrowing up or down.
So while you have that open put all you want on the desktop or start or task bar.
Use the task bar for IE, it also works gbest over the app versiion on the start screen.
Hope that helps. Windows 8 is really beautiful after you learn to use it. If you go to microsoft.com you can search for keyboard shortcuts, or say and I'll post the link.

## Post 19 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 08-Dec-2012 14:01:42

Also I forgot.
You can simply copy the shortcut. Example, you want the computer, or maybe outlook on the desktop. Once you locate it in the file location simply copy it to your clipboard and paste it where you want it. Sweet!

## Post 20 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 08-Dec-2012 15:29:08

That's why I like GW Micro. They offer the option of bying Window-Eyes on time payments and, while you do have to put in a new license number every thirty days if you do this, you still get unlimited access to the program. Their tech support is also phenomenal, at least from my experience. They also, as of version 8 at least, support Windows 8.

## Post 21 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 09-Dec-2012 2:39:34

Another tip on Windows 8 for Jaws users anyway, is to read the "whats new in Jaws 14" section in your Jaws.
Insert J arrow up to help or use the key stroke, right arrow, go down to help topics, open that and read. It will really explain some about your start screen.

## Post 22 by peppermintpatti (Generic Zoner) on Tuesday, 15-Jan-2013 4:29:52

How well does NVDA work with Windows 8? Also what about System Access for the above question. Thanks

## Post 23 by synthesizer101 (I just keep on posting!) on Tuesday, 15-Jan-2013 18:55:09

What is this about apple not allowing third-party screenreaders? They do nothing of the sort! Developers just realized that they wouldn't make much money marketing a screenreader to a platform that already has a workable screenreader on it. If you would like to make your own, go ahead. But don't expect much money from it.

## Post 24 by season (the invisible soul) on Tuesday, 15-Jan-2013 19:49:15

Why any third party wanting to make a screen reader for Apple when it comes with the product, out of the box?
Developer will make use of the money they can get from the PC market, specially with microsoft having half care but mostly don't care about accessibility atitude.
Any business person will know thats easy math, go with something that you know will have the potential, instead of going to build something that you know you can't get any business for.
Microsoft won't make it's product fully accessible because, if they do, how can they get licencing money from company like Freedom Sucker and GWMicro?
When the out of the box screen reader work almost perfect in almost all situation, there's no reason to reinvent something that won't works, and keep rolling out updates, after updates, and pray that consumers will suck in to their point of sales.
The way all this company works is not by you buying the product, is by you upgrating the product, to the latest, so that they can suck your money out and dry.

## Post 25 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 15-Jan-2013 23:23:31

I personally have much and high praise for Microsoft, accessibility, and Windows8.
While it was in development they worked with screen reader vendors to make it work right away, and I think that is great.
Even the start screen will work with Jaws, and Microsoft has made the Apps store accessible and lables Apps that are not so you don't waste money buying something that won't work.
Microsoft has opened it's Apps up to students and anyone that wishes to try to create one.
No. you're not making any money creating what Apple has already done.

## Post 26 by starfly (99956) on Wednesday, 16-Jan-2013 8:43:03

I am sory but open ofice is nice on the mac but does not hold a candle to MS. office, so until VO can work with ms. office I am running a vmware win7 on my mac until I can MUD and work with MS. office via VO. Outside of that I do love my mac and voice over.

## Post 27 by roxtar (move over school!) on Wednesday, 16-Jan-2013 18:14:34

Can somebody please tell me about this deal with the nfb law suit? I can't imagine, if this is actually true, what the point would have been, as I can't figure why the nfb would want to support companies like Freedom and GW, who price gouge to such a significant degree. Enabling blind people to have mainstream access is one of the prime directives of the nfb, and I don't get why they'd want to put up a fight on behalf of a 900 dollar screen readers if microsoft wanted to seriously develop a built-in screen reader.

## Post 28 by season (the invisible soul) on Wednesday, 16-Jan-2013 18:20:48

Starfly, have you try IWorks? you got pages, keynote, and numbers. all of them is accessible with VO

## Post 29 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 17-Jan-2013 0:44:57

I don't know if that is true, but you can simple ask the NFB. They are open about the views they hold and why.
I can understand it to some degree.
For job accessibility you can't beat companies that are developing specific products for us
Microsoft has enough products, so why take from the small companies the employ as many visually impaired programmers and others as they can?
Last, you say you pay money for the screen reader. Even Apple that gives you a screen reader charges for other programs. All programs that Apple produces for the Mac are not free.
No, Microsoft's are not either, but Microsoft allows, or at the time allowed 3rd party companies to develop programs that work for them.
Mac's as good as they are simple can't and do not compete in the corprit world. We need products that can at least compete some, like office talked about.
You can't use Apple's programs in many offices here in America and other countries, but you can Microsoft's.
Jaws and GW help make that happen. If you look at it these programs help us more then Apple has in the past. Maybe the future will be different, but at the time.
I don't know the actual figures, but if you say Jaws and GW help us 50% to work Apple only helps us maybe 20% in the work force or less.

## Post 30 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 17-Jan-2013 0:50:41

Last, I forgot to say. Many of us that have to use screen readers receive them free, or we are given the first set free and must keep them updated. This is true with Apple programs.
You might get the screen reader free, but you'll pay for updates to most everything else. You don't buy a Mac and have life time upgrades for free.
The NFB will help you buy your screen reader as well if you can prove need.

## Post 31 by roxtar (move over school!) on Thursday, 17-Jan-2013 20:34:03

Companies like gw and Fs though, they employ what, maybe 500 blind people between them all? This issue affects thousands of blind folks in the U.S. alone, and the screen reader companies only employ a couple hundred. Seems like that isn't all that many blind job holders compared to the number of people who would benefit from a built in screen reader.

## Post 32 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 17-Jan-2013 20:49:25

But you see a built in screen reader, such as Voice over, can't be scripted to work at say the Yellow Cab company in New York City. It is as it is. Now an independent screen reader, like Jaws, can be scripted.
If Microsoft built one in to the OS, it have to be exactly the same for every computer, because they'd need to control how it work, as to the OS for quality control, and easy of build. Customization would be left behind.
While I can understand the wishes of many of us, I hhave to relize we can't have everything set up for us. I do give Apple lots of praise as well, but you don't see Apple making iPhones specificly for again, that Yellow Cab company. The cab company has to buy iPhones as they are, and can't decide how they should be customized to fit the needs of that company.
Even at home, Apple's OS can't handle everything we need totally, and many adapt the computers with Windows and Boot Camp and such things so they can do other things.
You can grab a PC, any PC, add Jaws, or GW, and you can do about 75% of things available to anyone that has a PC.
Nothing is 100% to uus, not Microsoft, or Apple, but both companies are doing wonderful jobs.
My hat is off for Windows 8. I have been using it for about 2 months with Jaws, and it works well.
I'm going to email the NFB and post the answer to this question that comes up. Why do they support Freedom and GW Micro?

## Post 33 by season (the invisible soul) on Friday, 18-Jan-2013 23:37:28

give me some example that you can do things on a pc that Mac user can't do it on the Mac?

## Post 34 by rat (star trek rules!) on Saturday, 19-Jan-2013 10:46:56

the gap between windows and OSX is getting very very small. you're basing off of stuff that is years old, it's like comparing mobileSpeak to the first gen IPhone. it's not going to work as then stuff wasn't as advanced as it is now. I myself could almost completely go over to my mac, and guess what? no scripts or anything needed to make it work.

## Post 35 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 19-Jan-2013 13:51:40

I'm not taking anything away from the Mac, or even Apple's support of us. I am simply stating at this time PC's are wider used specially in industry.
Until I can walk in to a company and explain I use only a Mac, and that device be made compatible with the offices system, the other screen reader companies are valid.
At this time they happen to be the majority.
If I only had a Mac that would limit my options even more, but a PC doesn't limit me more then working as a blind person has always.
Next, I stand on my reasoning that Microsoft is correct in allowing someone else to earn a living. That living doesn't hurt me personally.
Think about it this way. If you can afford a entry level Mac, you can afford an entry level PC with GW or Jaws added. Next, as far as I'm aware, no government agency, or charity services for the blind, will give you a Mac when you start college, but you can get a PC or if not the PC the speech software to use it free.
In most places using a agency to find work gets you the speech software free as well, and that job will get you the money to keep it renewed. If you go through a home training program, or what is called living skills, and for the blind a computer is a necessary tool to manage your life again, you can get that software free.
When Mac's are at this level of availability for use I'll be interested in Microsoft developing a good screen reader.

## Post 36 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Saturday, 19-Jan-2013 16:20:49

Wayne, while I agree wholeheartedly with you on all counts here, the people who are arguing against you are paid for by you. They are not in the workforce, they are not out in industry. Maybe they are in social services perhaps and that is honorable work: my wife does that stuff, and it's far and away above my pay grade to be sure. But these kids on here don't understand industry.
They've never had to do like you and I: I'll never forget walking onto a job site, with a 2 year old baby girl at home, with JAWS and a external synthesizer and having to manage with all proprietary systems.
This was the mid 90s, and industry hasn't changed that much: they own proprietary systems that cost them up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, they have to have patches written to connect with modern network technologies, and all sorts of things, so a reader like JAWS or Window Eyes that is scriptable is no different than scripting Office to work with a proprietary telephone or shipping management system using VBA tools - Yes Office Visual Basic has not changed for many many years, kids. Some of you were learning to keep your pants dry when that stuff was new.
Industry doesn't just cough up tons of money, create downtime while everyone at the company learns how to do their job on a new system, just to update. After all, most companies you have hundreds or thousands of users who have known how to do a particular job the same way for years, and are really fast and productive at it. To retrain them means less productivity for awhile, and I dare any of you idealists to sell that idea to a company's shareholders. If you even know what shareholders are. Of course, we all wish everything would upgrade and be modern. Not just you kids on mommy and daddy or government assistance: any of us in industry who do I.T. work love to bitch and moan about legacy systems and how difficult they are to work with. But if you upgrade one you will need to upgrade its dependent systems or write bridges - what people call 'scripts' to connect the two.
To be honest, what the readers are doing is industry standard, even if their languages aren't always. And you poor idealists are in for another shock, take this sitting down, the readers aren't the only expensive software with proprietary scripting languages. Not by a long shot.No way, chilluns. You see, in the early to mid 90s, when high-level languages started to become popular as a way to bridge existing systems to one another, lots of spin-off scripting languages got developed for various systems: Eclipse-based, VBA-based, and all have their favorite parts everyone in industry loves to bitch about.
You see, in your college classes, everything is bought by the state, all nice and neat and in a row. But out here where the working people live, it's a hodgepodge world of systems held together by tireless effort of many I.T. people who sometimes have to script a system just to work on a virtual private network. That has nothing at all to do with the readers. All our stuff is is just one more set of interfaces that has to be hooked to.
The problem with things like Apple is there is no scraping off the screen involved, which is a good thing yes for the most part. But if you tried to run a application that had not been developed accessible you would see nothing on your iPhone or your mac. Out in the wild, where the working people live, there are apps whose source code is lost, the apps cannot be changed, just bridges get done to interface them with newer systems, but those apps did things for an employer nobody else does, and so they absolutely must have them.
I want to get a Mac, too. And for all the newer Coast Guard stuff, my iPhone is wonderful. But for industry, where databases still have valuable industry data from 1996, where windows don't have accessible anything, I'm glad there is a JAWSCursor or people who write the interfaces for people. I'm not defending anybody. But if you want to talk smack about the situation, please try being realistic about the world as it actually is. A lot of things we all love to hate, like the screen scraping, colors and the like, are often the only way in when there is nothing else and this legacy system is all there is. But readers are not the only ones challenged by this: not by a long shot. Anybody who is anybody in industry knows that lots of the work that gets done is getting systems, no matter how legacy, to talk to each other.
Apple cannot do that, and won't: their model and paradigm isn't, and hasn't been, industry-friendly. They weren't in the 90s when it was System 7.x and they aren't now. If they were, you would see a situation that looked an awful lot like Windows, with all its vulnerabilities and everything else you love and hate combined.

## Post 37 by season (the invisible soul) on Saturday, 19-Jan-2013 19:35:41

If we talking about pure proprietary system, which is tuns of them out there, even screen reader scripting won't work. Believe or not, specially program like databases and so on. Yes for some industry it may, but for others, it don't and won't work.
The idea is for developer to develop something that is across platform, that can compareable with different operating system, and different environment.
Yes, there're people out there that rely on proprietary system, but at the same time, there's also getting more and more workforst embrace the idea of tablets, mobile computing, and so on.
Instead of being totally against Mac, i would suggest, Wayne, you at least take a closer look at the capability of Mac, and make your arguement from there. Simply says things won't work, because you expect it to be the same like Jaws or Windoweyes, is rather, useless points for argument sake.
Yes, there're tuns of proprietary system out there that is using windows or Lynux, but at the same time, there's alots proprietary systems that using Mac and Mac alone.
If you talking to any decent web developer, web publisher, graphic designer, multiple and digital professional, they will tell you this and always will, they use Apple Macs since the very first day of their interestry. And i'm talking about, back in 1980s early 1990s.
It is all come to demand and supply. If you got the demand, sure, there is the supply. If you don't have the demand, of course, there aint going to be any supply.
Some of you might think i'm young, foolish and so on, but i tell ya, i've been around with many, many and many professional from different industry and different field. If the system is really proprietary enough for that particular industry, regardless of scripting or not, you, as a person with vision impairment won't able to work in there. Even if you can find 100 reasons as to why you can, you got script etc etc, they won't allow you to get close to access to their system.

## Post 38 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 19-Jan-2013 21:30:12

As I say I’m not taking anything away from Apple and the Mac.
All the jobs you pointed out that use Mac’s, digital design, publishing, and such, are all visual, and cannot be done by a blind person. Mac’s are really good for this sort of applications.
I’m not even talking proprietary, but the basic office.
Let’s look at the offices in my city. All public or government offices in my city use PC’s and Microsoft based programs to do the business there. The send out Adobe documents and on their websites to downloading forms will come to you as such.
The courts use PC’s, the pizza delivery company uses PC’s.
When I call for a taxi, or to get bus scheduling information, the rep that answers my call uses a PC. The taxi job was modified for the blind, and Jaws was the screen reader used for it.
I go to my doctor’s office and she uses a PC for her office business, and on the front desk and nurse’s desk they have PC’s. Hospitals here use PC’s, and when I go to the store and I want to add something to my baby registry, or look up a product, buy a car, that computer is a PC. Maybe I want to be receptionist at the hotel, and blind people have held this job. You know what? They had to have Jaws and a PC
Just the other day I was in the Customs house to do some business and they have computers you can use for things you need to do there, because they try to keep attorneys from bringing their laptops in to the building for security reasons. You can, but you must get special permission to do so. All of the loaner computers happen to be Dell PC’s.
The education system here all use PC’s, some teachers us Mac’s but the main system is PC.
I don’t know about where you live, but if you can’t get a speech program here in America that can work on a PC and that program be scripted for a particular job application, you simply can’t even interview for it. You might not get that job, but at least the screen reader companies that create Jaws especially, are working to keep up with Microsoft’s changing field.
Windows 8 is a great example or this. Office 2010 can be used with a PC, not a Mac. Some people are even running Windows on their Mac’s more than the OS that came with them, why do you think that is?
If Mac’s were competing in a wide field of use, or application compatibility, why don’t organizations that donate equipment to us give Mac’s, and software to support them?
I sent the NFB an email asking why they support screen reader companies and don’t push for Microsoft to create one. I’ll post that answer when I get it.

## Post 39 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Saturday, 19-Jan-2013 21:34:03

That's true about graphics and sound, yes. Desktop Publishing for sure. How about insurance? Flight reservations systems? Hospitals? Point of sale systems? Retail management systems? Shipping and receiving software? Accounting systems? Customer Service and Sales applications? The list is endless. And I know some of the blind, people my age and up perhaps, but remember we're the generation paying for everything. And they all work with these systems like users. Not a I.T. poindexter like me, I mean do the actual work there, taking orders, doing accounts, managing sales, stuff like that.
Apple does do some extremely niche places. Audio production, photography, desktop publishing. There ya go, that's about it. You're right of course, that any new systems will be developed new, new technologies, new tablets. You know what I saw a couple years ago? A contractor doing houses using Newton. Any of you young kids even know what a Newton is? It was a big ugly thing used like you use an iPod Touch now, sort of, except minus the music. It was a PDA, trying to compete with the Palm Pilot. This contractor and his group were using it because at one time they bought into a piece of software that was compatible with Newtons and not Palm Pilots. Nobody is developing on the Newton, or developing that software anymore. So while it's all well and good for some kids to come along and say they should, who is going to? The people who developed it are out of business long gone.
That's just one example, and I know it doesn't relate to the blind, but it's exactly what industry is full of. So to expect that industry will somehow magically be able to do something different as it pertains to readers, is entirely unrealistic.

## Post 40 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 20-Jan-2013 13:42:43

I need to correct something. I meant to say Office 2010 can even work on a Mac.Yes Leo's correct, we'll not see industry switch over. Its just to expensive, and you've got to have a majority switch not just a hand full.

## Post 41 by rat (star trek rules!) on Sunday, 20-Jan-2013 14:25:12

stop pulling the we pay for your tech card, it does not apply here. for all you know some of us saved up our own money, so pulling that same argument is not going to work. All you see is companies use PC's, now. why have over 70 percent of businesses rejected windows 8 if it's so great? what will they use when 7 and xp are dropped? Think over that

## Post 42 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 20-Jan-2013 14:47:52

The conversation changed to Mac's, I didn't change it.
Now, back on subject. Sure, businesses rejected Windows 8. Business is slow to change and to switch to windows 8 when many haven't even switched to Windows 7 yet. Windows 8 is just to different.
You see, Windows 8 would require a huge learning and training curveand that just doesn't make economical sense right now. I think businesses are just now willing to switch to Windows 7, because many use it at home. That helps with the learning, or training curve.
Another reason is that the support will soon die for XP. Support is important for security of the I T systems. Security is money to them.
Even home users with a choice are sticking to Windows 7, and as long as that choice is available on new computers they'll choose it.
As much as I like the OS, I can understand why people don't.
Again, for accessibility, it is tops.

## Post 43 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 20-Jan-2013 14:56:20

Oh, and the card you say I'm pulling, I should point out again, that even when we pay for our own tech, PC's with a speech program are just as cost effective as Mac's with speech built in
. Why should Microsoft start charging the masses more money to own a PC because a hand full of people need a screen reader?
If Microsoft developed one, would you be willing to pay more fore your PC with speech then a customer does that doesn't need it?
How can you convince the masses PC prices are going up, because we have to support the blind?
If Microsoft had started out on that footing it work, but now, no.

## Post 44 by season (the invisible soul) on Tuesday, 22-Jan-2013 3:36:47

The reason why organizations insist on paying for screen reader, or got funded for screen readers most likely is that, they got commition from the company like GWMicro or Freedom Sucker. Why organization don't promot NVDA? or SATOGO? Why they don't promot Apple products? Frankly, they gain nothing by promoting those products are they. If they keep pushing for some comertial screen reader like WindowEyes or Jaws, they can at least, get some sort of benefit from it. And that, Microsoft will never, ever, going to be as good as Jaws or WindowEyes for the same reason. If they moving forward without the need of other screen reader, they will lost loyalty fees from those company like FS or GWMicro. In honesty, how many blind and vision impairment people that got employ by FS and GWMicro? maybe the very lease. Yes, they got a group of dedicated private beta tester, that will be most probably more than their blind and vision impairment employees itself. So, again, the arguement of that, if FS and GWMicro gone out the window, blind and vision impair people will be out of job is rather, immature.
In fact, the way i see it is that, more and more people will willing to employ blind and vision impaire people, if there're some mainstreem products that can make it successful without any bits and pieces that attach with it, either hardware or software

## Post 45 by starfly (99956) on Tuesday, 22-Jan-2013 9:39:19

Sise: I have a mac,, took a look at apples pages and decided that it does not hold a candle to MS. office. Sorry you can argue all day long that it does but tell me who has it installed at a work place? Again, I love my mac but in the end I created a vm ware win7 because of some of the stuff I like to do on windows simply is not there yet for the mac. Laugh but here goes, is there a MuD client that has sounds for the mac? If so does it work with VO? If you can answer yes then point me in that direction. Second off, is there a office sweet that can truely hold a candle to MS. office? Lastly this is true, microsoft's cilver light player sometimes does not play very nicely on the mac side, it tends to buffer a gbit. yes I get it, why make a MS program run smoothly on the compeditors platform, when their main gol is to keep people coming back to windows. Google does the same thing with there apps as well, google goggles comes to mind, is okay for the Iphone but rocks for the android platform. Sorry but as now a mac user I am not sold that the mac platform can do any job for the blind.

## Post 46 by starfly (99956) on Tuesday, 22-Jan-2013 9:43:43

Let me make clear, I do love my mac with its 2.5 gig processor turbo boost to 3.1 gigs, 8 GB and its 500 GB HD. In fact windows seemsto run quite nicely

## Post 47 by rat (star trek rules!) on Tuesday, 22-Jan-2013 11:07:22

there is a client for mudding that works called Tintin, it works pretty nicely. also have you considered the free office options, OpenOffice and LibraOffice come to mind.

## Post 48 by starfly (99956) on Tuesday, 22-Jan-2013 13:29:17

Does this program have sounds? Tintin

## Post 49 by JH_Radio (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 22-Jan-2013 14:01:48

Joanne,
What benifit to the state services get out of giving people Jaws or WE?

## Post 50 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 22-Jan-2013 15:26:24

Butter. Actually it is the other way around.
Microsoft gives money to the companies and support. They teamed up to help them get Jaws running well for Windows 8. That service wasn't cheap I'll grant you.
The organizations gain nothing by supporting Freedom Scientific, or GW Micro. They are not paid. The reason they buy the products is for a long time they were the only products available. Next, they simply work well.
When NVDA and Apple come up to par in this regard I am sure organizations will suggest them. NVDA specially, due to it being free?
You are correct that both the companies don't employ enough blind persons to make all that big a differents, but they do employ some, and that to me is a good thing, specially when it doesn't hurt me to buy the products the sale.
Next, you have forgotten that screen readers are not the only products these companies make, and sale. The companies have a far greater selection of products for the disabled person, and are not only doing business for the blind.
The organization that is supporting disabled persons also has a greater customer base than the blind, so go to companies that have products for them.
If we are only talking Apple, look at what the Apple computer the poster here has given us the specs on probably cost? That bad boy wasn't cheap.
When the day comes you can drop NVDA on a computer and work at the local taxi company I'll be happy to promote it above both Freedom and GW's products as far as screen readers go, but until that day no.
If I'm spending organizational dollars I need a success rate, not a dis the big companies score to settle.
Personally, when I spend my money I like to get the best product I can afford, and for screen readers that happened to be Jaws. Installing NVDA is nice, but I have no tech support, I have to fix it so it works for me, and many other issues. How many people do you personally know want to fool around with their computers fixing anything, or even have the skills to do it? Jaws, I just drop the latest version on my old computer, and sit back and argue.
Smile.

## Post 51 by matt89 (Generic Zoner) on Wednesday, 30-Jan-2013 6:41:44

I'm sure narrator will continue to get better. Even Mike Calvo from Serotek stated that the screen reader will eventually be phased out. He even went as far as saying that System Access will also no longer be needed.

## Post 52 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 31-Jan-2013 12:48:41

In the mean time.

## Post 53 by Lisa's Girl forever (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Saturday, 30-Mar-2013 6:03:51

my mom and dad both share a windows 8 labtop. here. at home. And they say that it is all right. i'm a apple user. full time. though. i like apple computer's more then windows. but that is my vew.

## Post 54 by matt89 (Generic Zoner) on Wednesday, 10-Apr-2013 3:55:48

No one pays for accessibility anymore, just look at Android, it's very accessible, and talkback is free

## Post 55 by Hongsen (Zone BBS Addict) on Saturday, 04-May-2013 12:31:05

I am using windows 8 with NVDA on my laptop. I also installed a JWS demo on it. The truth is, as good as NVDA is, JAWS and Window-Eyes still works better in some ways. NVDA was the first to support Windows 8, but I don't think it is the best. It's good, no doubt about it but JAWS is still able to read some things that NVDA doesn't read. For example, NVDA doesn't read the labels for some buttons and menus for the control panel of my sound card. I thought it was the problem with the sound card software, unlabelled buttons and such but when I was using JAWS, I was surprised that JAWS was able to read those out. JAWS is also much more responsive especially on the internet; the responsiveness of NVDA and JAWS is really great. And what about Microsoft PowerPoint support? NVDA is implementing it in the upcoming version of NVDA and its BETAS and RCS but JAWS still work better with MS PowerPoint files. another example is, as I am typing this, NVDA doesn't read some lines that I have typed. It reads those lines as "blank". The settings for JAWS is much more flexible especially in the reading settings. I am not saying that NVDA is not bad; I am using as my main screenreader, aren't I? But paid screenreader does works better in some ways, probably because we paid for them and they have more experience. Narrator has improved but it is still not good enough to replace screenreaders like JAWS or Window-Eyes or even NVDA. However, I feel that JAWS and Window-Eyes are overpriced. I am sure that if it is sold at a lower price, more blind users would buy them, have less complains and be happier to update them therefore having a better user experience. It doesn't have to come free though that will be great. :)
A cheaper, more reasonable price will definitely help though, like maybe the price of getting Windows or Microsoft Office. The reason I am using NVDA is due to the high price of getting a paid screenreader. Apple's Macs are over priced as well. Look at a laptop that comes preinstalled with windows 8 and a MacBook. For the price of the 13 inch MacBook pro with the dual-core I5 processor, I can get a Windows 8 laptop with a quad-Core I7 processor. This is just generally speaking but you can see the price difference. You can argue that Windows upgrades are paid but you have to pay for Mac software as well. Adding the price of an screenreader to a Windows PC does change the story but Apple's VoiceOver doesn't cost that much on its own [Apple did mention the cost of VoiceOver somewhere in its price list, or it could have been a price list of screenreaders that I saw the price from].

## Post 56 by JH_Radio (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 04-May-2013 13:07:57

hmmm, could you possibly for the price of an apple product get a windows PC and afford a screene reader too?

## Post 57 by rat (star trek rules!) on Saturday, 04-May-2013 19:20:15

in the most basic config no. cheapest mac is 1100, the cost of say jaws alone, and we're not even talking the computer yet, another 300 if you want the bare bones machine new.

## Post 58 by Striker (Consider your self warned, i'm creative and offensive like handicap porn.) on Saturday, 04-May-2013 22:10:54

In theory you could get a really cheep pc that has crap hardware and a screen reader for about the cost of a mac you'd want to use, after you add tax, etc. Personally I wouldn't buy a mac under 1299 spec wise. you can't get the same specs in a 3 to 400 dollar machine, but it would be usable.
You actually can script voiceover quite extensively on the mac, but considering macs are not all that common in the workplace, no one is really going to take the time to cook up a script for the very same thing they could and would script on windows.
I've spoken to several people who work in state/government rehab programs. Its generally true that they do push the products they have deals on. that commission keeps rehab from needing quite so much money in government aid.
this is why they generally fight you so hard about purchasing a product not on their list.
Sadly, windows is the OS of choice in the business world. And thus, until the mac catchs up in some areas, its going to be really hard to do much of the corporate work on it. Even assuming your company is willing to throw out the last 2 decades of development they've done on their windows based systems their employes use every day. this, is extremely unlikely.

## Post 59 by JH_Radio (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 04-May-2013 22:37:20

Hmm. a netbook perhaps?
bthere's always eBay....

## Post 60 by Hongsen (Zone BBS Addict) on Saturday, 04-May-2013 23:46:40

I was comparing price of machines without screenreaders. As I said, adding screenreader price to a Windows PC changes what I am saying but I was doing a comparison between Apple's overpricing and Windows PC pricing. In that aspect, Apple is really helpful in providing us a machine that works out of the box, well done. But isn't it a little overprice for the hardware? What if I get a free screenreader to use on Windows like NVDA? Which would then be better? Windows is more common in many areas. When I was buying a new laptop for school, I considered Mac but I got to thinking about the school installing some other additional softwares on my laptop. Most things are compatible but they may work differently. So I rather get something that everybody will be more familiar with. I myself am also more familiar with Windows but that can be easily remedied. Windows is just more competible with most things. Think of connecting a phone to your mac and Windows PC; not talking about IPhones here. Think about using MS Office. No matter Windows XP, Vista, 7 or 8, the keyboard commands are almost the same with some additions from the previous version, it's still Windows. so not so much of a learning curve for me. It's not that I mind learning how to use a Mac, I have read the manuals on how to use VoiceOver with Mac. It's impressive what VoiceOver can do but I find Windows commands more simple. Not trying to be bias here.

## Post 61 by Hongsen (Zone BBS Addict) on Saturday, 04-May-2013 23:51:51

Oh and look at the MacBook Air, is it really worth the price? It looks nice, It feels nice, made from high quality materials. But hardware wise, is it worth the price? I don't know about others but I prefer to buy something that is better in hardware, something that has more processing power, higher speed and better software rather than aesthetic looks.

## Post 62 by rat (star trek rules!) on Sunday, 05-May-2013 10:38:44

My MacBook is a late 2009 model and it still rivals some of the stuff on the market today. it cost me a little to get it but it has held up better than any other machine I've seen, including some very costly windows laptops I've heard of people getting. You pay for quality with a mac, not the name like you would with say Sony

## Post 63 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 05-May-2013 12:10:46

A machine from 2009 I'd agree, but lately Apple has been using the same componets as lower cost PC's because they are reliable.
I tend to think of Mac's and PC's depending on what type of work you want to do with them and how much on board software you want.
If I did photots, or some type of design I'd want a Mac. For the basic things a cheap PC does extremely well even if you have to get a screen reader.
The thing with a screen reader is after your PC stops working you can take your software with you, or even install it on more then one PC, so that is more cost effective.
Yes, you have to pay for upgrades, but that cost is marginal, and you don't always have to upgrade. I advise it, because it is again cost effective.
If you want to use more then one Mac you have to buy several at the Mac price.

## Post 64 by JH_Radio (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 14-May-2013 21:22:00

if you were gonna pick between updating the screene reader or PC, i think it would make more sense to update the screene reader.

## Post 65 by starfly (99956) on Thursday, 16-May-2013 13:49:57

I have a mac book pro mid 2012 8 gigs of memory I am running win7 boot camped and moutain lion.