# Touchscreen Accessibility

Category: Geeks r Us

## Post 1 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 19:28:57

I decided to look for a comparison of Windows 7 and 8 for blind users. But before doing this, I searched for a comparison of Windows, Android, and IOS, and found this article on accessibility and tablets. It seems that IOS came in first, though they used Narrator for Windows and not a serious screen reader, like NVDA.
http://www.incobs.de/tests-english/items/tablettest-blind-en-overview.html
I have only used the touchscreen on an Android, and found the experience less than pleasant, to say the least. I have never liked touchscreens in general, which is why all of my appliances and technology have dials, switches, and/or physical buttons. But I was curious as to how usable touchscreens would be on other devices with other operating systems. I read that IOS can be used strictly from the keyboard, but found the Mac very cumbersome when I used it. To be fair, though, I only used Leopard and Snow Leopard, and IOS might be different. If so, could someone give me a basic idea of how, and whether or not IOS is preferable to OSX? I've also heard that while Windows 8 can be used without a touchscreen, it can be more confusing than 7. So I would like to hear about your experiences, both with touch and with regular computers. How accessible do you find the above systems, which would you recommend, and why? If, instead, you prefer Linux, or think I should try that, I would be interested in your reasoning. Even if I do choose 7 or Linux, I think this will still be a useful thread for other blind users.

## Post 2 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 19:35:43

Its useless, but my suggestion would be, and always has been, get over it.
Touch screens are no more difficult to use than keyboards. They have a slightly
steeper learning curve, but cry me a frickin' river. Sometimes you have to try if
you want things to be accessible. And don't even think about saying that you
have accessible technology without touch screens. First of all, you don't, and
your past board posts make that incredibly clear. You have a half dozen right
now looking for jury rigged ways to make antiquated technology some
backwater equivalent of slightly accessible. Second, touch screens are more
convenient than anything with a keyboard, and convenience is also part of
accessibility. So pull up your bloomers and get the hell over it. Stop whining and
try actually learning something from this century. Otherwise, for the love of God
just shut up already.

## Post 3 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 20:04:47

Out of the touchscreens that are actually accessible.
First would be Apple. Next Microsoft.
Next Google's or Android systems.
For you I'd not suggest anything. You have to be willing to want to use them, no matter what one you pick.
All do work, and all can be learned.
I don't think the learning curve is any better or worse on any of them.

## Post 4 by starfly (99956) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 20:57:27

As an android user who uses android with out any form of keyboard I have tried, tried and tried to help you. I do not know why or what is your hang up on the nexus7 touch screen. I can honestly say you never asked me, if for some reason you have a crazy idea I really do not know android, your fricken crazy yourself. Also, lets not for get I also attempted to explain the keyboard use in IOS to you that whent over your head. So here you go, no there is no interacting with any form of list or table on any IDevice. If you want to doubt me and attempt to prove I do not have a IDevice then dig to day through quick notes. I have an IPhone 5S that has a slider keyboard case smile, I teach the IPhone. Look if a 90 year old man can learn the IPhone then tiff you can too. NO BS, no why, just go sell the nexus7 and get a IPod fourth gen and learn it. Better yet, actually learn the nexus7 give it an honest run for its money.

## Post 5 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 21:18:54

I actually posted a separate thread with an article that I found on Android. The article itself can be found here. Feel free to respond here or at my other thread. I wrote a bit of my opinion on it there.
http://chrishofstader.com/testing-android-accessibility-i-give-up/
As for IOS, I like what I've heard about not having to interact. But I recently learned that there is no expansion option to an iPad Mini, meaning that I cannot connect a thumb drive etc. to it. How can I transfer files from the tablet to a drive and/or pc and vise versa? Must I use something like iTunes for all files, or is there a simple copy and paste function as with Windows and OS X? Also, does it create the empty files that a Windows machine would see as does the Mac?

## Post 6 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 21:54:29

I'd say you can read all the articles you wish, but until you actually try one of the systems you'll know know.
They work. We here on the Zone use them. All the formats of them as well.
We'd be your best source wouldn't you think?

## Post 7 by HauntedReverie (doing the bad mango) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 23:17:10

I know Android can be used well enough accessibility wise bla bla, but the brief time I've messed with an Android touch screen phone, it just pissed me off. The screen reader sucked, it was pretty jumpy, and I felt like I was just fighting with the thing. So if your only experience with touch screen is an Android, don't base your feelings on that.
I started with an iPhone 4 about three years ago. Yes, at first, it was frustrating to use. Like Cody says, the touch screen does have a learning curve, and you have to practice. But I got used to it and now, I can touch a specific location on my phone's screen and land right on the icon I want. No shift tabbing, no arrowing. Just spacial memorization. Voiceover is wonderfully accessible for all the native ios apps and systems, and the gestures are intuitive. I'm no speed demon with touch typing, but that's what the dictate button or the braille touch app is for. (Braille touch is one of the numerous apps out there that lets you touch the screen in a braille configuration to type. Then you can copy your text to clipboard to paste, or send it directly on to text, Twitter, or e-mail.) I have no issue navigating with my iPhone.
I have heard you can get an iPad with some kind of Bluetooth keyboard that has a little clippy thing so your iPad sits in landscape mode. That means turned on its side for you people reading this on an old kaypro machine right now. Effectively, you've just created a laptop with your portable keyboard and your iPad as the screen. I've never used a keyboard like this, so I don't know what all it can do. Your concern in your other thread was with battery life? but I'm sure you can plug the keyboard in while you're using it at home with the thing. An iPad plus keyboard is going to be lighter and more compact than anything else I can think of. Plus, it's got a good battery life.
No, there is no USB connection. Ios is up with the age man, and uses cloud storage. You could always e-mail yourself your super top secret files and save them on the iPad probably? I don't know. I use Dropbox.
I don't know how tables work on Ios. I don't interact with them. I've only ever messed with tables using JAWS.
I have seen something Greek with voiceover?
You can get an iPad that only uses wi-fi, and I think those are a little cheaper. Please don't by a knock-off iPad from China...

## Post 8 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 10-May-2014 23:31:07

You brought up a very important point with the word spacial. I don't know if it's because when I've been blind since I was two-months-old, so my brain doesn't work on that visual level, or if it's because I was born prematurely (a mobility instructor actually told me that one), or what. But I tend to find commands and clean menus far less frustrating than graphical menus or touching screens. I have always liked physical buttons on things. I even prefer high profile keys on a keyboard, rather than the low profile ones that everyone makes today, though oddly enough, I didn't have a real problem with my netbooks. Thinkpads are literally known for having good keyboards, so I can't include those. So it was probably a combination of Android's issues and my own that caused me so much frustration. I want to try these things, but they just confuse and annoy me. Give me a list of what others would call cryptic commands to do things and I'm fine. But tell me to tap, swipe, flick, or slide my fingers and I have a mental block and immediately think "I don't like this". To me, computing should be simple, not complicated. But I did ask for honest opinions, and all of you are giving them to me, so I sincerely appreciate this.
Now the cloud is another matter. I'll use a full blown touch operating system before I ever even consider using that, except for bookmarking sites and possibly uploading music. Otherwise, my files stay on my computer or on a drive or card. So that is a definite problem for me.
I know of one Greek synthesizer for the Mac, and it's about $100, or at least, it was when I bought it, and it still can't handle polytonic! I didn't realise that there were knock-off iPads. Do they make the minis that way as well? If I ever did buy one, I would need to be careful of that, since I would be buying from Ebay. What is a retina display and are there huge differences between the first and second generations of the iPad Mini? Mom has a regular iPad from a year or two ago. I'm sure that she never updated it and has no intention of doing so. But could I at least try that to see what IOS is like or has it changed a lot in that time. Let's assume, just to be safe, that it's two-years-old, though I'm pretty sure it was bought last year.

## Post 9 by Dolce Eleganza (I'll have the last word, thank you!) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 1:27:10

You can use drop box as well. I honestly feel as if you don't really want to try
any of it. You say you want to but then you later state that when you hear of
the commands you have a mental blockage that tells you you don't like it. What
do you really want, then? Maybe the first thing you can try before using a touch
screen is ridding yourself of this dislike of them. I'd understand if you used an
iPhone and a tablet and an iPad. It's like me saying I don't like chicken when
I've only tried it roasted, and there are thousands of ways it can be prepared.
Oh and also you can use a braille display and a wireless keyboard with apple
devices, so you don't always have to use touch screens. That's all I've got

## Post 10 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 1:35:55

That sounds like a truly wonderful option. But from what I know, the kind of displays that would work with an iPhone, iPad, etc. cost thousands of dollars, which I can't afford at all. Like I said, I'm not going to put my personal files online, regardless of what system I use. It's really a shame that they don't offer a normal way to manage and transfer files. What about blue tooth or some kind of networking option between computers? Does it perhaps offer that? I have heard of pairing Apple devices with blue tooth keyboards, which is why that came to mind.

## Post 11 by Dolce Eleganza (I'll have the last word, thank you!) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 1:51:17

You can do most of that. You can pair two macks, an iPhone with a mac etc. So
what if you lose your hard drives or they're stolen? I feel that dropbox is not
public, and it's a safe way of backing up your files. How can you not go online
on a certain file back up system and you can come post here, what's the
difference? If you didn't post, no one would know. Things are as public as you
wish to make them if you're not careful. t bet if you look properly you'd spend
less on your modern devices than the repair and maintenance of your old tech.

## Post 12 by dallas cowboy fanc (Veteran Zoner) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 2:21:48

Wow. You should say thank you once in awhile to these guys tiff. It would be proper.

## Post 13 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 4:45:35

Um. Ok. Here goes. I tried using android, hated it. I used IOS with and without a keyboard--loved it after a week or twoo-thats' how long it took me to learn it well enough to navigate. You can definitely try your mom's iPad to see how it works. But you'd have to play around with it for a few hours at least to give it a fair chance, and then, you'd have to call upon some of us blind IOS users so we can give you the shortcuts to the initially frustrating issues you may have. But it's nothing nearly as confusing or frustrating as android. And I've never tried microsoft's windows touch devices, so that I couldnt tell you about.
Really. IOS is your best bet--and if I were you, I'd just break free of the stigma in terms of online storage. Dropbox is seriously secure. I use it to send important files for work back and forth so that I can work remotely. And if you're that paranoid about your files being lost, I'd keep a backup on them on a large external drive. They're cheap--the one terabyte ones--these days. And truly, USB is not any less stable than your antiquated parallel ports--in fact, I'm not a tech expert, but I think they're actually just another version of serial ports. Just because you've somehow had bad luck with them in the past doesnt' mean they dont' work in as stable a manner as a compact flash card.
Oh. by the way, just so you know, an iPad runns on a solid state drive--while all of your antiquated tech runs on the conventional hard drives, with spinning, moving, breakable parts. Drop an iPad from a moving shopping cart and pick it up, with the ability to use it just fine once more. That's how durable they are.
Also, tiff, working with greek on your iPad is as simple as switching the language in the global settings on your IOS device. I know. I just tried it for fun. No need to buy synthesizers, add-ons, plug-ins... you have the whole shahbang right there. Go ahead. try out your moms. And get over your fear of swiping already!!! I've been blind since birth and I have some issues with spacial orientation sometimes, and I can easily find what I want on an IOS screen by just pointing to it at thsi point. You're seeking a simple computing solution--nothing you've suggested you'd like so far has been any simpler than the iDevices. My mom--who has no idea how to turn a computer on and has never used a touch screen anything has learned her iPhone in a matter of days and she uses it. If you can get on the zone and spent all your time tediously searching for the best solution for yourself, trust me. You can eventually use an iPad or iPhone. and learn to love it as well.

## Post 14 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 7:22:09

I have to ask, because apparently I have nothing better to do this morning,
what the hell kind of files are you writing that you fear putting them in a totally
secure, password protected online storage program? aRe you doing research on
the underwater speed of nuclear submarines? Are you selling our nations
secrets to the east germans while smuggling cocaine out of south Vietnam? I've
read your writing Tif, it sucks enough that I don't think anyone's going to want
to steal it. I really can't imagine you having something so secret on a file that
you'd be even slightly afraid of the incredibly minimal chance that someone
would either want to or be able to break into your cloud. You're complaining
about something so insignificant that you can't even be said to be making
mountains out of mole hills. You're making mount everest out of the grand
frickin' canyon here. Its not even a hill yet.
I don't buy that whole spacial problems excuse either. Every one of us has
some sort of spacial issue sometimes, but if you seriously can't figure out the
difference between flicking and sliding after a bit of practice, your problem isn't
spacial Tif, its either laziness or stubbornness. And guess what, you can train
yourself not to have spacial issues as often. Its called plasticity of the brain, its
a fascinating thing. When you're done looking up articles comparing the brown
bess musket to the broadsword for home defense, you might try looking up
mental acuity exercises. They're fun and easy and they work.

## Post 15 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 11:00:54

I highly doubt that my drives would be stolen, as I don't take them anywhere. As for them being lost, I am extremely careful with them, particularly the new thumb drives, which are tiny. I don't care about my posts being public. I just don't want my files to be. I guess it's a bit different with Dropbox is a bit different, but I still feel far more comfortable with a real backup solution, and one that's less easily hacked (no one can get into my files if the drive is not plugged into the machine).
As for a one terabyte drive, just thinking of that makes me laugh. 120gb or 160gb should be enough, and in both, I'm still giving myself a lot of extra room that will probably take years to fill, if I ever did. My current external drive that I have for daily use is 32gb and I only filled about 16gb of it so far.
Yes, usb stands for universal serial bus. As I said, in Windows, I don't really use serial. It's parallel that I would want, but I don't need it on an ultraportable device. I have mixed feelings about this thumb drive. On the one hand, it's great, because it sits lush with the machine like a pcmcia card. So I can always keep it plugged in, without it sticking out and breaking pins, like the larger usb drives. But if I take it out, it's also easily lost, which is why I said I have to be extremely careful. It's less easy to misplace a compact flash card, especially if it's in a pcmcia adapter. But to be fair, my cards work better in a usb one, due to the speed restrictions of pcmcia. Another advantage to these drives is that they're far less expensive than cards most of the time.
To be fair, you could also drop a Thinkpad, Toughbook, and probably a few others, though less so on the first. My Itronix DOS machine is fully rugged. So I could probably drop it from the roof of my house without a problem. Not that I spend time up there. *smile*
I really like what you said about the Greek. That's far better than having to spend $100 for a synthesizer so that I can do my daily tasks. My mom is like yours and had the same experience with the iPad. She's not on the internet everyday, but she knows how to get on, and she loves it. I may grow to enjoy it, or at least, to learn it. But I still don't think it will be any simpler than either a commandline or a text user interface, with clean menus and the like. Those are very direct, and in the case of the menus, it's difficult to get things wrong, as there are no buttons and whatnot.

## Post 16 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 11:08:28

Now I think you're just desperately trying to talk yourself out of even the idea of convincing your stubborn brain that you might like an IOS device. And yoru defense is weak. Seriously. If you're so paranoid that you feel yoru files (which is probably nto significant to anyone else) will be hacked into via dropbox, why not use a file encrypter to encrypt them? They have free ones you know--and they work on all files. You basically pick a password for ach file, and voila!! Much more hack-proof. And seriously I somehow doubt that a string of code and commands is any simpler or straight forward than tapping a place on a screen. Taht, mind you, isnt' really even an icon--not to us blind individuals--because the icon is translated into spoken word. Therefore written word too.

## Post 17 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 11:18:49

SilverLightning, just for the hell of it, I decided to read while not logged in, to see what you posted. I thought it might be something helpful. But you're back to your usual insulting self, even on a board where I actually am asking about modern things and trying to have a decent discussion. Still, I will answer you, and then go outside, because the weather is beautiful today.
My XP machines are all accessible and have no touchscreens. But I have to upgrade them due to the security risks that everyone keeps mentioning. Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother and wouldn't be having these problems. My DOS ones are different. I have one that just needs a new ac adapter and a screen reader installed, and I'll be good to go. It's not the newer version, but I can play with this one until the other one comes, or just ask for that one, since all that's needed is a modem internet driver (I don't remember if it's for wireless or dialup). I think the card reader is installed on there. In any case, one of them will be coming back very shortly.
There is nothing wrong with my writing, thank you very much. But on the whole, you're probably right when you say that people wouldn't want to steal it. But I'm sure they would love to have my bank and credit card information, and if they hack into many machines at once, it won't matter what I have on mine, because the security will be compromised for all. I just don't feel comfortable putting my hard drive on the net. Now if it was controlled by the Hellenic Military, I wouldn't mind. *smile*

## Post 18 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 12:12:08

despite the fact that you guys have posted helpful things about iOS/storage options for the OP's benefit, unfortunately, she'll continue to turn a deaf ear to you.
that's a damn shame, cause if she actually listened to what's being said, didn't have some of us on ignore, and got over the spacial issues/inability to learn a new setup, which she's convinced only she encounters, she'd be a lot better off.

## Post 19 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 13:13:15

I could easily take people off of ignore, which I will probably do, since reading their posts is easier. I originally put people on there because they were being extraordinarily offensive when we were discussing my essays. It's completely fine to disagree with someone, but not to personally attack people just because you don't like what they're saying. I'm talking about the older posts, not here.

## Post 20 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 13:17:29

So here's a little thought Tif. Don't put your credit card information on an
electronic device. You have a code of dots that you and only a few other people
know. Use that for your credit card information. Thieves will think its just a
bunch of bumps on a piece of paper.
As for security, there literally are no viruses on macs. They don't exist. The
security updates, the few ones that they give, you don't even notice. Its simple
and fast and usually automatic. I agree with Bernadetta, you're just trying to
talk yourself out of it, and its clear you don't even know enough about it to talk
yourself out of it, let alone into it.

## Post 21 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 13:43:25

I wanted to try and be fair, to see what all the hype was about with these touchscreen devices. That's why I posted here. I just think it was a very foolish thing for Apple to do with their IOS devices, especially considering that the Macbooks offer several ways to save information properly.

## Post 22 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 13:49:59

Tif, I can save a file in the cloud from my mac at home, go to Europe, and get
that file on my IPhone. That's why they did that. You would have to take extra
things with you. I wouldn't have to take anything at all except the IPhone.

## Post 23 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 13:53:09

Cards and drives are neither heavy nor large. They can easily fit in a case with a device. But I suppose, for those who like such things, the cloud is a good option.

## Post 24 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 14:05:05

See, that's your problem Tif. You don't want actual advice, or even to actually
try these things. You want to put up posts like this so that later, when we call
you on this crap, you can point to this post and say, "No, look, I did try it, I
asked, it just didn't meet my victorian ethics". You don't want people to give
you actual advice, cuz you don't listen to actual advice. You want to make
excuses for everything that you still cling to even though a better, cheaper,
faster alternative exists. That's why we get so annoyed with you, because you
act like you're four. Grow up and take advice Tif. Its not difficult.

## Post 25 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 14:17:02

I didn't create this post to start a fight. I was merely asking for facts and opinions and I got them. What I do with them is up to me. I shouldn't have to be forced to accept an option, and that's what Apple does many times. But since they're part of the game, I had to ask about them and their operating system.

## Post 26 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 14:45:16

And when you asked for opinions and advice, did you have any willingness to
actually follow any of it? Your token gestures don't impress me. They only
reinforce my idea that you are acting like a child.

## Post 27 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 17:02:05

What's the point of receiving oppinions and advice if you're not really even going to give them a second glance? How's this our time well spent? We're eager to help and willing to teach and share resources. But why? What for, if all of it will fall on deaf ears?
You say that apple forces people to accept options... trust me. if these options weren't viable ones for the majority of the civilized world today, Apple would have changed them in no time. Because they have such a customer following that it is truly in their best interest to cater to their wants and needs. Apparently no one else misses having the ability to use flash drives on an iPad. Apparently, most people found them to be cumbersome. lol.

## Post 28 by starfly (99956) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 17:30:29

I love the article you posted on android, a guy who used it 3 months, tried to make it work like his IOS device and felled. I could tell you how you could make your nexus7 work better for you but again you would go and post an article on android saying how it does not work and how crappy it is to use as an OS. Also I could tell you USB and powered harddrives work with an many to USB 2.0 adapter but again you would some how go refute my argument with an article or two. Also I could tell you its possible to use an IOS device with out ever using the touch screen. I agree with cilver lightening and others you not looking for advice. Your just looking for a sound board and how not to use a touch screen.

## Post 29 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 19:24:47

write away, I could see your point about cards for some people. But how are tiny thumb drives cumbersome? They fit right into the machine.
starfly, you're definitely right about those adapters. I use a cable to connect my Android to my computer, and I'm guessing that if I could find the cord with the male usb on one end and the Android connector on the other, I could probably connect my drive as well. That's definitely a plus of their system. Three months is quite awhile to learn how to use an operating system. It took me less than a week to learn how to use the basics of Windows when I first started, and by the end of three months, I was very comfortable with it. Keep in mind that the author of that article did say there were workarounds for various packages, but he was reviewing the accessibility of the built-in programs.

## Post 30 by starfly (99956) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 20:54:32

All of the apps on your nexus7 work with talkback, yes I am right lol., unlike the author of the article you posted tiff, I actually use an android powered phone "nexus5" as my main portible device. Yes, so those who have seen me ask IPhone questions, I also do have an IPhone with a buddy box wave case. I am going to chime in here for the last time. Tiff if your going to make a real attempt to learn an OS such as IOS "IDevices" or Android Devices, then push the keyboard a side, find totorials on IOS or Android and get to learning. My last hint for you on android, Anna Access of "that android" show did a review on the same device you have. Go listen to both of part one and part 2 of "long ;look at nexus7".

## Post 31 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 22:53:28

Actually you don't have to store your files in the cloud using an iPhone or such devices. I don't have it here in my head, but there is a devices that allows you to put your files on a thumb drive.
Next, you could upload them to dropbox, and remove them on your PC to a drive and erase them from dropbox so that they don't stay there.
Just some input.

## Post 32 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 23:28:41

That's really good to know! *smile*

## Post 33 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 11-May-2014 23:49:06

Comparatively, tiff, a flash drive is cumbersome when you can just pick up any old device, get online, and find all your info right there. the flash drive, you need to remember to have with you. You need to be sure its the right one. that it works as it should, etc. etc. etc. trust me. if there was no demand for such services as apple's cloud or dropbox, there wouldnt' be any of that around.

## Post 34 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Monday, 12-May-2014 1:56:05

I will admit i haven't read but a few lines of this board so far. When a post is to long, i tend to loose my attention...
but here is my thought I got in those few lines I skimmed over.
Wouldn't that be nice if they made digital things such as stoves and such things, accessible, like IPhones?
Or maybe???
They can make an app,
not that there isn't one for nearly everything else out there,
that will make it possible to cink with your applyances to control them from your phone???

## Post 35 by season (the invisible soul) on Monday, 12-May-2014 3:03:19

Just want to say i feel very sorry, so sorry for Cody and Starfly. You both trying your
hardest, but its fall on deaf ears.
I haven't come across any touch screen either from Androy, iOS, or Microsoft platform
that is not workable. But yet, trying to get this across to someone that is a deaf as
anything, hang on, actually, when i think about it, it is easier to get point across to deaf
ears than to this pear of greek ears.
Just like i expected, wednesday and thursday last week was looking at new laptop that will
run window 7, monday and tuesday last week was talking about Adriane, and now, we
talking about accessibility of touch screen.
What is next for you Tif? Accessibility record player with touch screen and speak Greek?
I'm not trying to be too critical here, but, dare i say, i think you have some OCD with
technology, and some OCD on old technology, not to say OCD on rejecting every advice
that a half sound and normal person give.
And, again, as you show again and again on your so call articles, it is not even valued
articles from value sources. And, you prefer to take advice and suggestion on all these
randem people with randem profile, but not from people that have been using touch
screen for years, and people that know what we talking about, and have been telling you
so for years.
I don't feel sorry or symphaty for you Tif, i really don't. But i feel sorry for those that try
to help you, those advice and suggestions that fall on a brick wall.
If you can't take any sound advice from the Zone, can you spare the space and post your
questions somewhere else?
This is not a posting contest. Anthony or Chris or JJ won't give you some most posts
award...
So, spare us half sane people some brain sells, and find somewhere else to entertain your
stupidity.

## Post 36 by Dolce Eleganza (I'll have the last word, thank you!) on Monday, 12-May-2014 3:47:11

I think you're forcing yourself out of touch screens more than apple forces
people to go with their services. Apple doesn't force, it's on demand because
it's more convenient, practical and secure. Nothing is 100% secure. Anyone
can come into your house and rob anything including your information if
somehow you're not extremely careful with your tiny USB drives. You can
misplace your bag, or sometimes it might take a long time to recieve your
luggage from the air port or you can lose it, and bye-bye flash drives. Do you
honestly think anyone cares about the content of your files? Because there are
a lot of modern, less cumbersome options out there. You have a choice. What
will you do if the day comes when you can't repair your old tech? Will you rid
yourself of it completely and go strictly with braille and paper or telegraphs?
I'm trying to understand what it is you want, because you can't have what
you're looking if you are unwilling to put some effort to give touch screens
another try or save money to purchase a braille display or wireless keyboard
and not have to use touch screens. You can do what you wish with what I write,
here. I personally don't care, because if you don't benefit from it, someone else
will. It just isn't fair that you post, and when you're given help you're so fought
up in this fear of touch screens or online secure file protecting programs. I
don't know what else to say, other than I believe you'll end up running into a
wall while strongly refusing to adapt to safer options for storing and protecting
your information.

## Post 37 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Monday, 12-May-2014 3:50:13

Let me repost something that's apparently been lost here. "Even if I do choose 7 or Linux, I think this will still be a useful thread for other blind users." So I was asking out of curiosity and also to help others. I asked a few questions and was hoping for nonpartial answers. When I got some, I explained various things, trying to figure out my own issues. But it doesn't matter. I found my solution. I'm definitely going with Knoppix.

## Post 38 by Imprecator (The Zone's Spelling Nazi) on Monday, 12-May-2014 4:19:57

Go die you whiney sniveling maggot.

## Post 39 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 12-May-2014 5:08:14

You might be right Tif, maybe this would be helpful to other blind people, and
when you show me a single other blind person who is trying to make technology
work that was invented during the second season of the fresh prince, I'll agree
with you. Until then, don't try to claim altruism, you don't have the background
for such claims.

## Post 40 by season (the invisible soul) on Monday, 12-May-2014 5:32:58

Wow, when one have nothing to say one can simply say "i do this for the benefit of
others"... How convinion. Shall we say a messive thank you for such a generoucity?
So, now we back to Adriane are we? Well, it seems right, considering today is kind of
getting to the starting of the new week. So, can i safely say that we won't expecting any
great contribution about Window OS, Apple OSX, Androy, iOS, Touch Screen technology
for the near future, say, till end of this month?
And spare us those talk about you are doing this for the benefit of others will you? As far
as i'm concern, every blind people i know are interested in moving forward with the
technology. Maybe not first week, first month, or first year. But they are generally
interested in accessibility and advancing in accessibility for technology. I only know blind
people that wanting to move on in life, moving forward, not moving backward and
spending 90% of their time wondering why we are not living in 1970s but we are living in
2014 and beyond.

## Post 41 by Imprecator (The Zone's Spelling Nazi) on Monday, 12-May-2014 5:41:28

Not me, I want a manual typewriter that can play mp3 cylinders from my acoustic phonograph.

## Post 42 by forereel (Just posting.) on Monday, 12-May-2014 7:04:41

Well, there are some issues with people not being abile to understand touchscreens.
To be fair, I think she did state something about her difficulty with this.
But here is the thing, and I'm not saying this to be critical.
You don't seem to have a problem with technology, in that, you have a basic understanding of some vary difficult systems, or that were at the time, so I wonder if some adapting would work for you?
You see, all touchscreen devices, as pointed out, can be used with keyboards and such things.
Saying this, it is not the fact the device has a touchscreen that will make it not accessible, but the users unwillingness, or lack of information to make said device work for them.
I know a lady that uses her iPhone mostly with her voice, because she has an issue typing, because she isn't educated enough to do it.
Her disability is only partly to blame, because she didn't put energy in to herself when she could see in school, so when she became blind, she still didn't.
She wanted to send text messages, and she had an LG phone. I taught her how to speak them to send them.
Now she's got an iPhone, and that system is wide, so that everyone can receive her text, where as with the LG only some could.
This was just figuring out what worked.
If the content is on her iPhone, such as Pandora, or phone numbers, and such, she can use the touchscreen to access this items and work them. Anything that doesn't require her to type anything.
Now laptops have touchscreens, but you don't even have to touch that screen. They have keyboards, so that laptop works exactly like a laptop you have used.
Nicky. You can now control many things using an iPhone.
Heating, lighting, your TV and your sound system.
Thought I'd share this with you. It is available now, so we're not weighting.

## Post 43 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 12-May-2014 10:45:03

Yep, you can even unlock your door and shoot a gun with an IPhone. But that
takes all the fun out of shooting. But you can do it, they have the technology.

## Post 44 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Monday, 12-May-2014 13:13:59

Yes, I did state my reasons. I was hoping for an impartial and educated discussion on the topics, and was even trying to learn. I was posting questions because they came to mind as I was reading. I can't do it this way, but could I do it that way? I think this may cause me difficulty, but what about this? I was asking out of honest curiosity, and exploring my own issues with touchscreens. It's the first time that I was trying to honestly learn, and I got bashed for it, as usual. So it doesn't matter whether I use something from the 80s or something that just came off of the assembly line and was delivered to my door, people will always have problems with me. I don't care. I have made up my mind, finally. Thanks to those who were actually decent to me, and who tried to help me.

## Post 45 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 12-May-2014 14:19:17

You weren't bashed for trying to learn Tif, you were bashed because you
didn't actually try to learn. You tried to get the answer you wanted, and when it
wasn't given, you got butt-hurt and whined about how you couldn't make what
you wanted work. then, when you didn't take our advice, as you haven't done
so many times before, you come back and whine about it all over again. Maybe
if you showed some capacity to actually learn from past mistakes, or show any
kind of deference to people who clearly know more than you about pretty much
everything, you wouldn't get bashed so much. But that requires maturity, and
that is something you are sorely lacking in. So when you next come up with a
problem, don't bother asking us on here. You clearly don't want us to answer, so
don't waste our time.

## Post 46 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Monday, 12-May-2014 15:23:16

Wayne, the OP has stated that she has problems, but they're the same problems that many of us sometimes experience. therefore, that argument doesn't work, as there are lots of people willing to help her. however, we can't help someone who refuses to listen.

## Post 47 by forereel (Just posting.) on Monday, 12-May-2014 23:49:56

Well, she does need to give them a try.
I confess when it was time for me to upgrade my cellphone, I first got the same model I had, but the newer model. I didn't like it as well, because it seems they'd made it better in some ways, but cheaper in the ways I liked.
I ordered an iPhone 4S.
Manuals were available for my other phones and even in braille, so I went looking for one for the iPhone, and found it.
When the device arrived at my door, I need no sighted help at all to set it up, and that impressed me greatly.
I'm hooked.
Give them a go, but when you do, you also have to be willing to accept the learning curve on any of the systems, and you must figure out what add ons are available to help with your specific disability.

## Post 48 by season (the invisible soul) on Tuesday, 13-May-2014 2:37:43

Wayne, her problem is not purely can't understand, her problem is much more than that,
is the denial of new technology. The denial that blind her, and letting her to believe that
touch screen is evil. Because touch screen representing new technology, representing
2010 instead of 1980s.
She's obsess with the denial, so much so that she refuse to take any input from
everybody representing 2010s instead of 1980s.

## Post 49 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Tuesday, 13-May-2014 2:51:58

Actually, there were devices with touchscreens in the 90s, and I believe that some of them even ran DOS. I know Mastertouch is a sort of touch device. I have the whole system, but never played with it. It's a kind of screen reader with something that they called a tablet (nothing like the modern type), with ridges/tracks that you would slide your fingers across and buttons on the bottom. That's pretty much all I know about it.

## Post 50 by Westcoastcdngrl (move over school!) on Tuesday, 13-May-2014 3:44:45

iPhones are good. My Mom has low vision and functions well with an
iPhone 3G (i.e. an older model phone)... she can even send me text
messages on it.
Apple technology is so good that even crazy sighteds like me don't have
problems using them.... our learning curves are even larger because we
naturally become so dependent on visual clues that we often forget where
things are located on the phone screen. In fact, Ed_G has to help me
sometimes when I have problems. He gave me his iPhone 5 last year
when he upgraded to a 5S and told me how to do a hard reset so that I
could start using it.
I don't attempt to deny that I love going to the Apple Store and randomly
turning on Voice Over on a few of the iPads and iPhones on display... it
confuses the crap out of the sighteds, because they don't know how to use
the phone/tablet with Voice Over on and they certainly don't know how to
shut it off.

## Post 51 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Tuesday, 13-May-2014 11:40:03

Lol at Kate. :)

## Post 52 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 13-May-2014 21:34:45

Just mean! hahaha. I love it! Smile.

## Post 53 by Dolce Eleganza (I'll have the last word, thank you!) on Wednesday, 14-May-2014 6:38:19

ahahahaha lol Kate! :) I don't have a problem with you Tif, i have a problem
with your problem, as you are making it a bigger problem by not getting ofer
your fear of the learning cerv of touch screens. I guess the question would be
why are you curious? You lady out a problem or issues you stated you had and
we honestly tried to answer you. I personally wasn't bashing you, I genuinely
wanted to help you. But first help yourself and then perhaps if you're willing you
can take what's been said here.

## Post 54 by Dolce Eleganza (I'll have the last word, thank you!) on Wednesday, 14-May-2014 6:40:00

I meant you laid out your issues here and we tried to answer you with things
that could be helpful...

## Post 55 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 14-May-2014 10:56:38

Kate, you have no reply for your meanness to the sighted community that can't shop in an Apple store after you leave? Smile.
Just shameful.
You should also turn on the privacy screens. You know, not many Apple workers know about that feature?
You could at this time pretend to fix it making you the tech goddess. Lol

## Post 56 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Wednesday, 14-May-2014 13:25:10

hahahahaha This all sounds like fun, and I'm not one for pranks. But this is harmless and gives us a laugh at the expense of the sighties. *smile*

## Post 57 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 14-May-2014 14:07:24

Yup, just try not to get found out...

## Post 58 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 14-May-2014 14:50:23

No crime though. What can they say, a customer came in here and tested the shelf items and when she left we had to reset everything because we had no idea how to fix it? Smile.
It talks, but they can't see to set it.
The reverse. Lol

## Post 59 by Westcoastcdngrl (move over school!) on Wednesday, 14-May-2014 17:01:16

Wayne: Eleni said it for me at #57.

## Post 60 by dallas cowboy fanc (Veteran Zoner) on Friday, 16-May-2014 3:07:33

Awesome people in our group. So smart and helpful. Starfly i hope you and your wife
have got knocked up. Tiff, lets focus on an app for a treadmill so we stay in pro shape. I
have a new one in my building and i cant figure out the digital panel. Peace out and get
your heart rate up. Btw i have to train for my big golf tourney in a month.

## Post 61 by season (the invisible soul) on Friday, 16-May-2014 7:00:27

hahaha, don't worry Kate, my local apple store knows me well, in fact, know me and
another couple of blind people well. In fact, most of their iDevices got VO enable already,
just need to triple click on the home button. It is all about education, in a good positive
way. And, i must say, most of the Apple staff that i came across have basic knowledge on
voiceover. In fact, from what they told me, its part of their training. However, i won't go as
far as turning the screen curtain onn. That is rather silly and really, whats the point of it
but making a bit of fun, in the way to give some trouble to the next person, and, perhaps,
live a negative name for blind people? I think that is too much of a fun, in my opinion.

## Post 62 by Westcoastcdngrl (move over school!) on Friday, 16-May-2014 7:25:35

Don't know how to turn the screen curtain on, so am not likely to bother with it.
Besides, it's better to mess with fellow sighteds' minds by turning VoiceOver on. It
doesn't hurt the devices and it's an easily fixed "problem" that can cause unnecessary
frustration to the uneducated.
The Apple stores near my place (there are three of them) are fairly busy all of the time, so
it's easy to sneak in there, pretend to be "looking" at the merchandise and click that all
mighty home button three times and casually walk away without being detected.

## Post 63 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Friday, 16-May-2014 10:17:31

The screen curtain doesn't do any damage to the iDevices. lol. And to turn screen curtain on, for anyone who's curious and doesn't know, three-finger tap three times. Wink wink, kate. ? ? lol.

## Post 64 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 16-May-2014 14:04:09

If I were to get a treadmill, it would be manual. No electricity, touchscreens, or accessible programs required. Just get on it and start running. Then again, if they did make an electric one that was easy to use (a button, switch, or dial to turn it on, and another of the same to change the speed), and if I was in the market for one, I might get it.

## Post 65 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Friday, 16-May-2014 14:07:31

Manual treadmill?
Ok people. I am dating myself here, but I am doing it for a reason:
I remember a Weekly Reader in first or second grade, this would be in the very late 70s (78? 79? maybe even 77?) And in it, they were talking up the electric treadmills - jogging machines, they called them - because the unfit would have to work to stay running at the pace that was set.
So, going to a manual treadmill? I admit I have never seen one, but if that school magazine of the 70s, the Weekly Reader, is to be believed, it was surpassed by the electric in the 70s.
Guess they still have the mag, the daughter used to get it in grade School once we moved back to Oregon.
Anyway, just another bit of perspective on how old we're talking about for this stuff.

## Post 66 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 16-May-2014 14:26:36

Typing manual treadmill into Google brought up all sorts of results for current items. So apparently, they're still being made.
https://www.google.com/search?q=manual+treadmill

## Post 67 by bea (I just keep on posting!) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 5:57:57

I bought two in the past 20 years from Sears. There is an up and down control to control speed, a key for safety that you put in the keyhole first before you begin, and there is a switch to control the treadmill hill to make it highter or lower. My nephew has a touch screen one and it looked to me as if you could put braille dots where needed.

## Post 68 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 7:11:29

I've seen a manual treadmill in the late nineties. It was a cheapo foldable one.

## Post 69 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 16:39:05

You can buy manual one bran new.
Also many company's as pointed out, make the fancy ones, so you can feel the keys.
Now, you'll not be able to do har rate and such, but you can control the machine completely.
Get an iPhone for the rest. Smile. Yair!
It is my opinion that all that har rate mess is a gimmick. People got is perfectly fine shape before all that mess, and still can.
I am! Smile.

## Post 70 by Runner229 (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 16:54:32

I am posting this from a touchscreen device actually, then again I'm doing dictate because
I'm lazy LOL. I also am not up for reading through all of the posts at the moment, I only
made it through the first five. So I apologize if my post is slightly off-topic from what the
topic is now at. The fact of the matter is is that these companies that make the devices
with touchscreens are making them so that they are more accessible than other products
that do not have them. If you don't see that as an inconvenience and Soviet, that's your
opinion, but you cannot discredit the fact that devices are more accessible and convenient
to the majority of blind people. I can't give an opinion in regards to android devices or any
other devices, because I am an Apple user who was 100% pleased with their products. All
I can really say is that it doesn't hurt to try different things out if you're unsure, but you
can't really say that it isn't for you because you haven't had the experience of trying as far
as we know. If you have and I don't know this then I stand corrected.

## Post 71 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 17:04:22

That was an extremely respectful and thoughtful post. You also made some very good points. I have only worked with the Android, not Apple, other than my Macbook, which I use exclusively with the keyboard. This is why I began this thread, so that I could be fair and hear what others had to say. I mentioned several things that concerned me, got answers, asked more questions, etc. I never claimed that I would start using touchscreen devices, but I figured it was only right that I learn about them so that I could make a more informed decision, incase I ever did consider purchasing one again.

## Post 72 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 17:57:31

So basically, you posted it to waste all of time in the vain hope that you could
be persuaded with reason and sound logic away from your antiquated theories
about things you have absolutely no knowledge about? So very kind of you.

## Post 73 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 18:42:17

to add to Cody's last post, you did this, OP, knowing full well that you weren't actually gonna change your way of looking at touchscreen accessibility.
you're so set in your ways that all you know how to do, is hope that people will, at some point, praise your views, despite your hiding behind the, "I'd love to give touchscreens a chance, cause Android is a nice system," crap that you spewed in, like, one post.

## Post 74 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 18:58:11

I didn't realise that your devices allow you to enter someone's brain and explain their reasoning behind doing things. If so, then your programs are malfunctioning. I posted here to obtain knowledge, and to hear the other side of the story, since everyone is always raving about these touchscreens, and since I found an article comparing them. I was intending on this being a continuation of that, with comparisons of the good and the bad of various systems. It turned, as usual, into a personal insults game.

## Post 75 by Westcoastcdngrl (move over school!) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 20:56:33

@ Write Away.... ah ha.... I see, said the crazy woman as she Googled how to turn screen
curtain on. I was wondering how Ed was able to use his phone with the screen blank. It
never occurred to me a) that the two things were interconnected (i.e. Voice Over and
Screen Curtain) or b) to ask him how/why he is able to use the phone with a blank
screen.
See? even crazy sighteds don't know all of the technology tricks... now that I know how to
do it, I have just spent the last 5 minutes playing with Screen curtain on my iPhone and
on the iPad (I'm posting from my tablet at the moment).
Thanks for the hint and for the added possibilities for amusement! Smile

## Post 76 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 17-May-2014 23:12:49

Well tif, here's a little bit of advice you won't take. If you don't want people to
ridicule your backward and frankly moronic opinions about technology, shut the
fuck up about them. Go on hobbyist boards to ask your questions, I'm sure
they'd love to tell you all about how these young whippersnappers with their
fancy flat glass gizmos are ruinin' the world. They'll regale you with tales of how
they put the kibosh on the nazis back in 42, and they did it without any of them
new fangled gadgets them annoyin' children got now. Us, we don't really give a
shit about you or your affinity for floppy disks and pointless posts where you
ask for information you're never going to use. None of us, and I'm sorry for
speaking for other people here, but none of us care about you, your opinions, or
probably even if you're offended at our lack of interest in you. Either get used to
it, become less of an idiot, or shut up.

## Post 77 by season (the invisible soul) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 2:13:36

Hmmmph, as a "normal" gym member for more than 5 years, i really feel like laughing
out loud for the idea of manual everything at the gym. I mean, if i want to have manual
machine, i think i can do a better job just running, walking, sycling on one spot instead of
getting some manual machine etc. I don't fffind what is so hard about the so call
"modern" gym equiptment. just as the same as the so call evil touch screen technology.
And, as much as their are so call touch screen, what you really need is just the start and
stop button, speed, timer, and another one or two button the most... I'm sorry for some
ignorance people that still wanting to live in 1970s, instead of 2014 and beyond. If i
honestly and seriously desperet, i think, i'll prefer to walk around the block 10 times
instead of getting on one of this manual thing...

## Post 78 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 5:19:39

Cody, you're so mean!!!! Bad cody!! lol.

## Post 79 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 7:04:49

I know I am. One day I'll find Jesus and change my ways, but for right now I'll
just keep swearing and being mean. And I'll keep laughing every time people
are surprised.

## Post 80 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 8:53:05

I really do agree with Tif that these discussions could go on without personal attacks.
But, I do suppose when a person comes on a board attacking technology and not actually asking questions, that is what causes the personal aspect to kick in.
I invite you to read back and try to see my point of view.
Now, back to the phone.
Just think Kate, you can now stand in line at the super market with your Bluetooth headset hidden under your hair, and look at the screen normally while you text away.
That nosy person behind you will think you]ve gone mad! hahaha

## Post 81 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 12:15:09

In all honesty, I also think there's no need to berate someone for their technological preference. I mean, if Tiff uses antiquated technology, it's normal that she's bound to get some flack for it, but there's a big difference between some good-natured quips and outright insults. After all, it all boils down to each individual's personal preference, and just because we may not be on the same page with everyone else doesn't mean we need to be told to shut up and go away.
I mean, honestly, who cares how many megabytes Tiff needs to get by with in life? Is it really hurting us or impairing us in any way that she only has four gigs of music? We may guffaw about something that seems strange to the majority of us, but that's where I draw the line, personally.
One thing I'll give Tiff credit for: she has been very precise about her technological preferences, yet she only speaks of her own individual ones and doesn't necessarily force her views on others, insisting that they join her in the guilded age. (not in this particular instance, at least). lol.
Is she irrational at times? I'd say so. Is she set in her ways to the point of humor? Certainly.
But it takes all kinds to fill up this world of ours, and while I'll agree that religious nuts, homophobes, racists and the like need to be told to shut the hel up because they're imposing their idiotic views on others, I think that someone's preference of technology is hardly hurting the world or even the blind community at large. I mean, well all have touch screens. We havent' been convinced by Tiff that they're evil and that we can't or shouldn't use them.
This sort of thing is synonomous with the topic of how one conducts their relationships, if one does or doesn't drink coffee, how they prefer to sleep, etc. Just as it's uncalled for to tell someone with an affinity for whine instead of vodka to go kill themselves, it's probably useless and uncalled for to tell someone who uses a mixer from the seventies to shut up and go away.
This is a little reminiscent of the movie "mean Girls". lol. It's not really necessary. Tiff's personal technological preferences do not align with my own, but just because I find her stubbornness distasteful or even funny, I don't think it's my place to tell her she's irrelevant because of it.
I may be the more progressive of us two, I may be using technology that is deemed superior over hers by the majoritie's standards. But she's not making me conform to her antiquated tech lifestyle, so what the hell do I care if she chooses Linux over windows, and a dial-up internet service over wireless? It's not like she'll convince the rest of the world to follow in her own footsteps. lol. I don't need to resort to telling her to go fuck off to show people that my way is more beneficial--it's already pretty obvious whose preferences are more advantageous in the long run.
It's not worth the effort to personally attack someone to that degree. At least not in terms of such an individualized preference as tech setup. We can debate this sort of thing without resorting to the old "you suck, I'm better, so fuck off and fall off the face of the earth" move. Just my thoughts.

## Post 82 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 13:02:14

I tried the useful and polite reply, it clearly didn't work. I've tried it probably a
dozen times, every time she comes on here and does this. Its all she ever does,
so I no longer find her relevant or worth treating as an equal.
And no, she isn't harming anyone per se. However, she is wasting all our time
by asking us these questions without actually seeking an answer. Not to
mention the fact that she is coming on here, asking for advice on her antiquated
technology, and ignoring those of us who say to get something new because the
old stuff is gonna break. Then coming back on a few weeks later saying that it
broke and she needs advice again.
If a child does that, you try to teach them how to take advice for their
betters. If an adult does it, you call them a child. Which is exactly what I did.
She still didn't listen, so now, I'm at least gonna enjoy myself while fencing
windmills.

## Post 83 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 20:16:53

Ah, writer. I love your post. Love it to pieces.

## Post 84 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 21:37:48

Cody. Hate to point this out to you, but if Siff's wasting anyone's time here, it's her own. she's not seeking advice through a loudspeaker, she's also not putting a gun to your head to make you anser or contribute to her board posts. If your answering to her posts after you've ar determine that avenue to be useless, then you're the one wasting your own time, or perhaps, you have time to kill. Calbbing out someone for being irrational, or eeaven for being an idiot is not inexcusable, especially if they're harming someone or otherwise exulting a bad influence upon someone imresssionable. Berating someone for their flaws when they don't really even concgn you, or insulting someone do to amuse yourself—again, when their issue is individual—is the stuff of kids. I've been around many kids lately, and while many play nicely, others pick on each other for lack of something better to do. I only bring this up because you said that if an adult cannot be

## Post 85 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 22:09:07

Boo. I'll retype that post later. That was written from a braille keyboard. sorry.

## Post 86 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 18-May-2014 22:14:57

I absolutely agree with you Bernadetta, but we all have to indulge our inner
child every once in a while.

## Post 87 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Monday, 19-May-2014 0:17:57

Indulgences are fine, but I suppose that at this point, I've outgrown indulgances had at someone else's expense. I find them to be tacky as of late. Just my personal oppinion.

## Post 88 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 19-May-2014 8:07:00

That's fair. You are a much sweeter person than I am. Though, I think it could
be argued that practically all indulgences come at the expense of someone else,
but that is an intellectual dual for another time and place methinks.

## Post 89 by Imprecator (The Zone's Spelling Nazi) on Monday, 19-May-2014 8:11:03

Bernadetta is a sweet snuggley teddybear.

## Post 90 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Wednesday, 21-May-2014 19:31:07

I have no idea what these people are saying, because I have them on ignore. I hope they enjoy talking with each other. At any rate, I was listening to a little tutorial on using Narrator with a touchscreen, and I remembered something. It was about nine or ten years ago, so I'm not 100% clear on the details. Someone came to my house for some kind of a beta test. I don't think she ever told me what product they were making, but she stayed for a few hours, and I worked with a device that, thinking of it now, reminds me a bit of the Master Touch in its design. It had tactile lines that I could follow to do things like read a webpage, select various things, etc. and I think there were a few buttons at the bottom to move the display. I think there was also a voice component, where I would issue commands. I didn't mind it then, and still wouldn't today. I think that getting to areas on the screen by touch is as good as using the cursors on a notetaker, such as a BrailleNote. The problem that I have is with completely smooth screens, where gestures are used and where you're supposed to type letters on an invisible keyboard. I liked the textured lines, because I always knew where, on the screen, my finger was located.

## Post 91 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Wednesday, 21-May-2014 22:57:34

You can get a tactile overlay for an IOS device that would solf your problem in that case. You have ones that feature the entire "invisible keyboard" complete with braille letter markings, as well as all the vital menue keys, etc.

## Post 92 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Saturday, 28-Jun-2014 22:28:22

Ok, I was very bored today, so I've been reading over a lot of older topics here on the boards. This one caught my attention for several reasons.
Here's the thing. I'm not saying that spacial issues can't be overcome, but I do find the attitudes of those who brush them aside like they're nothing to be a bit condescending. I, too, don't like touch screens, mostly because of this issue. I'll try to explain, but I can't promise it will make much sense.
When I played around with an IPhone, I could understand the fact that there were icons arranged vertically down the screen. But they didn't seem to be organized into logical rows. For example, I would try to double tap on an app, then move an inch over to the right on the screen, and still land on that same app. It seems to me that these columns should be arranged in such a way that it would be easy for me to find what I'm looking for.
Then there was the whole swiping thing. To me, since the columns are arranged vertically, you should be able to swipe downwards on the very right-hand side of the screen to reveal the next set of icons. Apparently, that's not the case. The other thing I really don't understand is the whole triple-finger swiping and tapping and everything else. Why should it matter how many fingers one puts on a screen? How does the phone even sense that? Some people have larger, heavier hands; some are just heavy-handed in how they touch things in general, and some have a delicate touch. With all these variables, how does the phone know what you're doing to it?
I found that I felt like a 14-year-old boy on his first date: groping and fumbling like there was no tomorrow. On a keyboard, I'm absolutely positive where everything is. I know where letters, numbers, and function keys are without thinking. I feel as though the IPhone is just another operating system, and I should therefore be able to accomplish basic tasks with ease. While I never have actually used a Mac, I think that, despite the switch from Windows, which I've always known, at least there would be a keyboard. And this would make me feel more secure in the knowledge that yes, things are different, but it's not a totally foreign concept.
Besides that, I don't really know if I want to memorize 10000 different gestures. How does one flick, anyway? Is it like taking the phone in your hand, and squeezing some portion of it between your thumb and pointer finger, then doing the motion as if you're snapping your fingers? That's the image that comes to mind when I think of the word flick. Keep in mind, also, that I was born blind; I do have light and shadow perception, but certainly not enough to pick up on visual cues or anything like that. So if that's an idiotic question, I apologize, but I honestly don't get how some of these things are supposed to be accomplished.
With so much missing knowledge, I quickly became frustrated and returned my IPhone after a day. I see no reason to spend over $600 for a device that I may or may not be able to grasp.
If I truly am the stupidest person in the world, as some have implied on this topic and elsewhere, in the past, for not understanding touch screens, so be it. I'm not going to be offended if anyone says so. But I do want to make it clear that I understand where the OP is coming from in her dislike of touch screens. I get the mental block, too. It's just such an alien concept to me that my mind completely shuts down when faced with the thing. It's not even like I could go into an Apple store and have them show me, either, because A. I don't want to be charged a ridiculous amount of money for someone to try to show me the basics of touch screens, and B. there are no Apple stores in my local area.
The only reason I'm bringing this topic back up at all is because, well, I'm getting pretty damn sick of my flip phone with its extremely limited accessibility. I would love to be able to use some of the apps on an IPhone. I mean, development of audio games for Windows has all but halted, and I'd like some fresh titles to play. I would love to have something like Blind Square, because, due to my spacial and directional challenges, I could really use something like that to help me. Mind you, I wouldn't depend on it--I snicker just as much as I bet you all do when I hear stories about people who were so reliant on their phone's GPS system that they drove off a bridge, or something else equally stupid--but it might give me more of a confidence boost, since I honestly feel, a lot of the time, as though I can't decipher compass directions and stuff like that. I would love to have a barcode scanner, and I hear that it's extremely accurate on the IPhone. I don't particularly want to pay an arm and a leg for an ID Mate, so there again, I can see how paying like $20 for an app as opposed to over a thousand dollars would be the much better deal. The wide array of apps, in general, fascinates me.
My current phone, as I said, is only just barely accessible. It reads texts; that's about it. I can't access stuff like the alarm clock or tip calculator. There have been a few recent changes in my life, and I think that incorporating an all-in-one device would fit nicely into that, but I am extremely wary, due to my last experience.
So, if my tone seems less than neutral, it's because I don't really know how to put this any other way. I feel like everyone just picked up an IPhone and learned all its features in 10 minutes, and I'm the only retard who didn't. So, I guess what I'm asking is, am I a hopeless case? And if not, what would it take for me to finally assimilate into the touch screen culture? Actually, scratch that; I'm not doing that. I hate how Apple and Android fanboys/girls act. To me, a phone, no matter how badass it is, is just a tool in my arsenal of things I need to go through my life. Drooling over a piece of technology is frankly idiotic to me. But I think you all catch my drift.

## Post 93 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 29-Jun-2014 3:58:35

Its simple, you get one and try it for more than a day. You look up online, or
ask someone who knows, what the different words mean. And, to answer your
question, a flick is just quickly brushing your finger across the screen in a given
direction. Though, the motion you described does have a use on an iphone, it
would engage the rotor, but that's something you would need to practice. As for
how the phone knows how many fingers you have on, it has nothing to do with
weight or anything. It senses your skin, that's why you have to touch the screen
and you can't wear gloves. If it senses three spots, that's three fingers. Its
really very simple. Though, honestly, it could be magic and it wouldn't really
matter. As long as it worked when you put three fingers on the screen.
I still don't accept the idea of having bad spacial skills. I was practically born
blind, I don't remember my infancy, so its the same thing, and I can do it. Its
called forcing yourself to do it. You don't have a choice, so just do it already.
You'll get better at it. Practice, and that means practicing something for more
than one day and giving up because its not as easy as your razor phone.
Sometimes things are a little difficult to get at first, welcome to life.

## Post 94 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Sunday, 29-Jun-2014 17:13:37

Cody is right, GT.
no one who's blind just magically learned the iPhone in a matter of minutes, as you seem to think is the case.
we all had our difficulties getting used to it, but that's just it, we stuck with it, asked for help when we needed to, and I'm sure most, if not all of us would tell you that this device in particular, has really opened up our lives tremendously.

## Post 95 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 29-Jun-2014 17:58:05

No. Wrong approach.
Here is why I say so, and Cody and Chelsea are not correct and the reason many have problems learning new technology, or some do.
First, you don't understand how the phone screen is actually layed out. Icons are actually in rolls like say seats in a movie or a meeting place, or the concert you went to.
Next, Apple has a wonderful manual that can be downloaded. That manual, on your computer, will help you understand the phone in steps.
You read on your computer, and try what you've read on the phone.
It guides you through all aspects, and explains the 2 and 3 fingers.
Last, did you know that you can make an appointment at your local Apple store? A rep there will sit down with you and physically show you what swiping, tapping, and such feel like.
We can't see, and if you've never been how some of these things feel, you might not understand them. Just like the clicking.
Do all the above, and the iPhone will open to you.
When I help people learn the phone, I physical sit with them and allow them to feel what I'm doing.
I also make them feel, by pretending the back of there arm or hand is the phones screen.
When I got the phone, I had read the manual before my phone arrived in the mail. I did exactly what I suggest you do when I received the phone, and when I had a problem with volume, I asked a friend that had one.
You are not a retard, you just need a different approach.

## Post 96 by starfly (99956) on Sunday, 29-Jun-2014 21:17:50

I do not think some of us are busting Tiffs chops but seriously, saying android is a nice system but you really have no clue how to use it is buttering up us android users. Guess what, here ya go, go eat your tub of butter because your full of it. seriously, my nexus5 is my main moble device because my IPhone 5S was dropped in a cup of sprite. As I said go get a manual from a blind perspective and read tiff, then go for and try.

## Post 97 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Sunday, 29-Jun-2014 22:17:49

Yeah, I do know about the Apple store, but as I said, I don't have one near me. So that's kind of out.
It does make sense to read the manual, if only to get a feel for what the OS is like, and I think I would get a Bluetooth keyboard anyway, because I would want to be able to type at least some of the time. On the other hand, I would still like to know how to do a lot of things on the phone using the touch screen, in case the keyboard breaks, or I don't feel like hauling it around. But thanks for the suggestions. I'll think about this some more, and probably will end up going for it eventually. I can't really afford an iPhone as it stands now anyway, so it was more a point of discussion than anything.
What about that book that the NBP sells, the IPhone from the blind user's perspective or something like that? Would that be worth it, as opposed to the manual that Apple provides? Or would both have their advantages?

## Post 98 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Monday, 30-Jun-2014 17:50:12

Yeah. I'm sure there would be advantages of reading an iPhone manual that deals exclusively with voiceOver. you're overwhelmed by the aspect of a touchscreen; I understand. I was too at first. But you really should have given it more than a day or even a week to decide if you could figure it out or not.
For instance. you say it would make more sense to youto have the phone's icons go up and down... but like Wayne said, you simply dont' have a clue of the screen's layout. They go across in rows, so then why would flicking downward on the icon list make sense?
Second, you dont' even really need to knwo where each icon is licated. You actually dont' have to point to each icon to engage it with a double tap--but it's fair that you'd think so because that's what I thought too. For those with spacial issues, you can actually just flick your finger once across the screen--anywhere on ths screen--and as you flick, voiceover presents each icon to you int eh orer that it is visible on the screen. So realy, in order to find anythingon the screen and engage it, think of the single finger flick as down arrow on your keyboard, or the tab key for that matter. you simply flick it and you find what you're looking for. then, anywhere on the screen, you double tap. So as I said, spacial orientation doesn't really come nto play when using an iphone. it does when you're typing, but you still get to move your finger around on the screen and only engage the key you want to type when you lift your finger or doubletap. I'm probably confusing you more, but my point is, there are many things you can learn abou the iPhone along the way that you wouldnt' know or think of from the get-go. You just need to engage the help of seasoned users and you get invaluable hints and tips that get you going right off the bat. That's how I got to using it. And by the way, I've been totally blind since birth too.

## Post 99 by season (the invisible soul) on Monday, 30-Jun-2014 18:29:20

When i first got my iphone, it took m more than a month to aquinton with it, 3 months to
make piece with it, and 6 months to make friends with it. by the 9th months or so, i can't
leave the house without it.
And, all this time i've no help, no reference, no tacktile guidance or anything like that. I
was one of the very first iPhone 3GS vo user before i really got in to iphone 4 and since
then, i'm kind of stuck with it for good. lol.
Whenever i teach or train some absolute beginer on the touch screen, i use the concept of
clock. You got your button on the botom middle of the screen as a guide, then
everything is on the clock.

## Post 100 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Monday, 30-Jun-2014 18:33:08

It's good to know that I'm not alone. I think I understood what you were trying to say, kind of. At least as far as flicking is concerned and all that. I was thinking that it would be kind of impossible to arrange a whole bunch of icons onto a small space, because the screen isn't really all that big. Like, if a person has a whole lot of apps, which are arranged on the home screen, they can't all possibly fit. But yeah, don't ask me why I thought that it would be logical for them to be arranged in columns, that's just how I pictured it, and probably what lead to so much frustration.
Thank you for your response. I actually just got done talking with a friend who's been trying to convert me to the IPhone for years, and he was happy that I'm seriously considering it now. he said that he would be more than willing to help me through Skype, so that should be somewhat of a help, at least.

## Post 101 by silly_singer (The girl who's always lost in a melody) on Monday, 30-Jun-2014 19:00:00

Another option for you GreenTurtle and others who are wary of touch screens, is
the tactile screen protecter from speed dots.
I believe it is also possible to order them from ATGuys. At least I think I saw an
add on here to that affect.
I myself have never used one of these protecters but I have a few friends who
have and they say it drastically sped up their typing and enhanced there
understanding of how the phone works.
For whatever this is worth to you, I hope it helps.

## Post 102 by season (the invisible soul) on Monday, 30-Jun-2014 22:35:20

Hi, the concept of the icon is that it is kind of pile side by side from one to another in a role of fours, and depends on the model you get, you get either 4 or 5 roles of fours before you get to the main 4 apps icon, which are Phone, mail, Safari, and Contacts. Every tile of the icon can be rearange and move to different location on the same page or different pages. Like me, i have about 5 pages of apps, and foulders of apps as well.

## Post 103 by write away (The Zone's Blunt Object) on Monday, 30-Jun-2014 23:41:15

You should go for it. It would probably make your life a hell of a lot easier as a blind person. and if the only thing standing in your way of that is the fear of frustration and the fear of not knowing whether you'll adapt, then you're cheating yourself out of a tool that could probably be very useful to you. Everyone has to adapt to change. I hated the idea of touch screens before I got my iPhone,a dn even more so after a had it for a couple of weeks. but you know what? I adapted and it's one of the simplest tools for me to use now.

## Post 104 by forereel (Just posting.) on Monday, 30-Jun-2014 23:54:28

Well, all the apps aren't on one screen. That screen has digital pages, and these pages can have folders with apps inside them.
Yeah!
If you don't have an Apple store near you, how about trying your cellphone companies store?
The understand swiping, or sliding, or tapping, and such things, so can show you much.

## Post 105 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Tuesday, 01-Jul-2014 10:25:18

Green Turtle.
When I first got my iPod Touch, my first device, I spent my Christmas vacation with it. That's all I did all Christmas break long: practice the VoiceOver gestures in the Practice mode, play a few text adventure games like Choice of Broadsides, etc. from the App store, sent some emails, and tried really hard to do browsing the web.
This was before dictation, and I had a teenager at home that can text faster than a butterfly flaps its wings.
I would have had a much harder time if I hadn't had the Christmas break to work on it. And, I did listen ahead of time to as much audio tutorials as I could find.
As to being intimidated? Try being the only middle age dad in the house surrounded by a pack of lmfao-textin' teenage fools, nieces, the daughter, friends, comin' and goin', all of whom can handle a touch screen far better than I ever would.
Just set aside some time, give yourself time. You learned Windows once. You learned to get around once. You've already learned a lot in life, this is just one more thing.

## Post 106 by Senior (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Tuesday, 01-Jul-2014 14:58:52

so here's a simple question. How do you know if your finger is on the 1 key or the 2 key if you can't feel the keys?

## Post 107 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Tuesday, 01-Jul-2014 15:16:57

That's a good question. VoiceOver tells you what your finger is on, then you only lift it when it's on the right spot.
Even sighted people, after awhile type without looking on a touch screen. In fact, Steve Jobs in 2009 recommended this for speed and accuracy.
It becomes a special / shape thing.

## Post 108 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Tuesday, 01-Jul-2014 20:28:22

Lol Leo, that's actually part of the intimidation factor, knowing that mostly everyone around me is using a touch screen. But I can see how your plight would be different.

## Post 109 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 02-Jul-2014 2:23:21

Also, by the position of the number.
If you use a regual phone, you know how the keypad is laid out.
So, you've got voice feedback "2" "3" and you've got position. "2" is in the middle top, "3" is to the right top.
If I move down when I'm on number 1 I hit 4 7 *
You can get an over lay, or screen protector as well, that has lines in braille to get you orgtanized. Once you are, peel it off.

## Post 110 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Wednesday, 02-Jul-2014 10:27:32

Green Turtle, one other thing to consider.
If yu dig deep, you may find the articles against touchscreens back in 2007 and earlier. I know: I was also one of these I.T. people who said that no real productive work could be done on a touch screen. This technological writing was not for the blind. We were guilty of all kinds of fallacious arguments, including, how is the person going to answer when they don't have a chance to look at the phone, and so on.
This was the Blackberry era.
So, consider that many people who deployed devices for professionals for years were wildly wrong. We were mistaken, and wildly so.
Even sighted people pick up their device and tap the right icon by distance and special orientation, not by visual feedback, in a pinch. And they don't even have the same luxury as us, meaning once they tap something it's gone off. No feedback to tell them what it is.
That's why I was beside myself with utter incredulity that the NFB years later came out and said the same things about touch screens not being productive. Apparently, they hadn't gotten the memo that the rest of us had gotten: that is one long dead argument. An argument so old and dusty the Blackberry Curve hadn't even been invented yet.
You're young. You don't want to be like us fools who got it wrong.
I'll never make such a cock-sure bet against technology again, no matter how many of my peers do it, and no matter how smart they are.
Again, the write-ups against touchscreens that I'm talking about, from the technology industry, had nothing to do with blind people at all. It's just that, later on, the NFB apparently never got the memo. Something like the Bill Gates anti-Internet memo fiasco of 1995: he had never gotten the memo either.
In 2005 to 2007, we were wrong. Very wrong. Some of us at least had the sense to change our minds by 08 or so, before I could even conceive of there being a way for me to use it.
Oh, and as to the "type without looking" that I mentioned in a prior post? There's no logical reason that wouldn't work on an Android as well as an Apple: it's a special relationships thing, that as a human being in 3-dimensional space you use all the time everywhere.

## Post 111 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Wednesday, 02-Jul-2014 11:15:57

leo, I'm assuming you mean spatial, not special.

## Post 112 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 02-Jul-2014 15:03:46

I'd personally read the manual Apple provides. It seriously covers everything you want or need, or don't need. It always makes me pause when people hate to read these. It is why the compy creates them.
People spend 6 9 months getting use to a product, when if they read the book, as my dad always called them, they'd spend 2 3 days maybe.
I, as I've pointed out, read the book. Didn't take me but an afternoon.

## Post 113 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Wednesday, 02-Jul-2014 17:02:37

Damn autocorrect!
Thanks Chelsea, yes spatial was what was meant.

## Post 114 by starfly (99956) on Thursday, 03-Jul-2014 21:15:33

what is not being said here android's typing has not just have audio feedback via talkback it has vibration feedback in its phones and some tablits. So as your sliding around the device will vibrate. Oh, I do not suggest going lower then jelly bean 4.3 if you can shot for kitcat or wait for android L to get a name and then come out of testing to the masses.

## Post 115 by starfly (99956) on Thursday, 03-Jul-2014 21:19:00

Not to beet a dead horse here but seriously a touch screen can be challenging but when you get over your fear the work put into it is wurth it. Some might even say life changing, my first android was life changing it was not on the level that IOS was back then. Still I took the plunge and none of you could pay me to go back to a flip phone.

## Post 116 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Thursday, 17-Jul-2014 16:11:57

While I am completely satisfied with my decision to buy the Asus 1015E laptop, I'm glad that some serious questions are being answered here, and that people are being helped. This is why I started this post in the first place. Good luck to those of you venturing into the world of touchscreens, and I say that sincerely. I'm sure there will be a whole new world for you to explore.

## Post 117 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Friday, 18-Jul-2014 15:41:26

I actually decided to wait until September, when the IPhone 6 comes out. that way, I can get a 5s for cheaper, hopefully.
I figure, it's already going to be expensive enough to upgrade my plan with At&t, because of adding data, plus getting back into a 2-year contract, that I'd rather not break the bank getting the latest device, which will probably only have minor upgrades anyway. So that's the latest on my situation.

## Post 118 by starfly (99956) on Sunday, 20-Jul-2014 19:15:04

here is food for thought, leave A T and T and go with T-Mobile. They have a 7 day test drive for those who want ot see how their network S5 and the IPhone 5S. stacks up to others. Guess what they even have the nexus5, galaxy S5 LG Flex and the IPhone 5S. All of those are really great phones and quite accessible. yes :) lol, fore those who know me from my advocacy for android I do have a IPhone 5S its the only Iphone I really can say I like and actually miss. It took a swimm in my wife's sprite cup.