# new problem for guide dog users on planes

Category: Animal House

## Post 1 by booklover256 (Veteran Zoner) on Thursday, 02-Aug-2012 20:16:35

This weekend I was on a flight back from St. Lewis, when I was part of an unfortunate incident, caused by Delta employees. I was about to board the plane with my guide dog, when I noticed that my seat was in the very back of the plane. Most guide dog users are told to notify the airline ahead of time, to state that you need a more spacious seat for your dog. Usually this is the bulk head. Since I did this, I was concerned to see I was in row thirty six, but when I asked the gate agent, I was told I could not be moved. They told me that the bulkhead was now called economy comfort, and people on flight paid twenty dollars extra to sit there. So, I was told even though i had asked for an accomodation that none could be made. The gate agent asked the people in the seat if they would move, but he did not tell them of the situation, so obviously they refused. When I got on the plane, my dog could not even fit in the row, and it was a tremendous problem. I crammed my dog in the seat, but people in a wheelchair would not have a choice. A wheelchair user could not board the plane without a bulkhead seat, and the airline cannot make them pay extra because they are in a wheelchair. We don't want to start paying extra because we have service animals either. We need to take a stand against this. I am contacting the department of justice, because technically this is not legal, as well as contacting delta. When the flight atendant saw what the gate agent had done, she also filed a complaint through delta. I just wanted to raise awareness of this issue. Any advocating we can do as a blindness community will help. Airlines cannot keep doing this.

## Post 2 by Liquid tension experiment (move over school!) on Thursday, 02-Aug-2012 20:23:57

I also think that is really wrong of delta, and hope that the guide dog schools find out about it, and make a stand against it.

## Post 3 by changedheart421 (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Saturday, 04-Aug-2012 1:47:10

seeing as I only fly Delta I will def be saying something the next time I fly.

## Post 4 by booklover256 (Veteran Zoner) on Tuesday, 07-Aug-2012 22:41:10

The more of us that say something the better. I hope it doesn't happen to you. I am doing my best to get it stopped.

## Post 5 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Friday, 10-Aug-2012 21:42:33

I flew on US air ways and they sat me in a window seet and at a spot that had no seet in frunt of me and my dog laid out in frunt of me and the person next to me. I said sorry but my dog had no room at all and I couldn't get it fixed.

## Post 6 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 18-Aug-2012 13:44:42

That's like the crap my Housing Authority has been pulling. I ranted about that afew weeks back, but the short version is that service animals are not allowed in my apartment unless they belong either to me or to someone legally living with me. That means tat if I allow someone with a service dog to bring said dog when they visit I could get in trouble for violating te lease. The implication, although the housing ladies did a lot of hemming and hawing when the question was put to them straight out, is that if I had a blind visitor tey couldn't bring teir dog. And this isn't just a private landlord owning one or two apartment complexes. This is the actual Housing Authority of Twin Falls, who of all people I would expect to be fully aware of the laws with regard to service animals.

## Post 7 by booklover256 (Veteran Zoner) on Saturday, 18-Aug-2012 22:08:20

that is definitely against the law. I would get the police involved on that one if you bring a friend with a service animal over and they call you on it.

## Post 8 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Monday, 20-Aug-2012 1:45:31

They claim it's down in the HUD (Hosing and Urban Development) regulations. And if that were indeed the case it wouldn't just be Housing who was in on this.

## Post 9 by Darth Vader (Luke, I am your father.) on Wednesday, 14-Nov-2012 19:57:18

jesus! People really need to update their knowledge on survice animals and allowing them into places or vehicles. That is all...completely disgusted.

## Post 10 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Thursday, 15-Nov-2012 10:59:46

I've considered it. There's been quite a bit of other stuff they've said or done whose legality I've questioned. Only reason I never pursued it was because I know I have no way of actually proving my claims. If I'd had some way of recording these contradictory conversations without arousing the housing ladies' suspicion it would be a different story. But right now all they'd have to do is say they told me something entirely different and they'd be off the hook.

## Post 11 by hardyboy09 (I'm going for the prolific poster awards!) on Monday, 17-Dec-2012 14:16:49

Hm,
I see this topic is quite old.
Last time I flew U.S. Air to get to New York over Thanksgiving. They did the same thing to my dog and I. My mom wanted to sit next to me but there was no way that my dog could even fit underneath the seat or in front of the seat, as that is the proper procedure for a dog guide. Basically, I complained and raised a fuss. I said, "I'm sorry but my dog can't comfortably fit under the seat so I will have to move." The flight attendant was being a butt. Luckily, there was this guy who worked for U.S. Air, who helped me secure a large row of seats for both Hardy, my luggage, and my mom. We sat at the back of the plane, but Hardy had plenty of room to lie in front of me.
As a refresher, you can always remove your dog's harness when flying. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yes, this is definitely an issue.

## Post 12 by Reyami (I've broken five thousand! any more awards going?) on Friday, 21-Dec-2012 4:38:49

I usually remove the handle of the harness, but in the event we'd have to leave the plane, the body of the harness always stays on. If this part is off, I don't want her to think she can play or worse yet, people around me to get the idea it's okay to pet her and assume she's a pet. I'm not going to have the time to fumble with a harness buckle in an emergency situation.

## Post 13 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 22-Dec-2012 10:53:49

That's what I'd do as well if I had a guide dog. I wouldn't want people messing with him or her just whenever they felt like it. Of course some people will try to do that no matter what you do. The key of course is not to stoop to their level of rudeness.

## Post 14 by SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today (LivingLifeAndLovingItToo) on Wednesday, 23-Jan-2013 19:04:43

Ok, so I should be super clear here because I didn't see the seat they offered you, but 1 of 2 things. A. this is what I am picturing, and it's your standard economy class seating, and you are being unreasonable, or B. this is truly smaller than your standard airline seat and you are being totally reasonable. I don't know, because I wasn't there, but your post was unclear. If you meant that they wanted you to sit in a normal, ordinary economy seat, which admitedly is rather small, and wouldn't give you the bulkhead I have this to say, read below for the other scenero, because I'm going to say both things because I just don't know... A. If this is so, then suck it up and get over yourself and make your dog fit. Again, this is only if we are talking about standard economy class seating. Unless you have a saint bernard for a guide dog or you don't know how to properly situate your dog, then you are being ridiculous. You make your dog sit in front of you, you aim their rump towards the seat in front of you, then make them lay down, and they do not need the foot space of the passenger beside you, nor do you require there being no seat in front of you. That is a luxury, not a right. I have flown for years and have never requested the bulkhead seat, because those with leg injuries, casts, oer very large service dogs need that space more than I do. Is it close quarters? Yes, but it is that way foreveryone else, sighted or not in economy class. If you want an upgraded ticket, pay for it. Also, be aware, the bulkhead row in many aircraft is the emergency exit row, and so you can't sit there. Now, let's address B. Ok, so if it was a single jump seat arrangement, or the seat in front of you had some obstruction where your dog couldn't fit under it, and or your seat also lacked space beneeth it, then you are totally justified. I have never seen a seat like that but have heard of them. Next time you might have better luck asking to move to another coach class seat, but not asking for the bulkhead. There is no reason that an ordinary guide dog, lab, golden, GSD, boxer, standard poodle, etc can't fit in an ordinary row of coach class seats, not bulkhead seats. But perhaps the seat you were offered was not the normal coach class seat, in which case, I understand your point. For the purposes of discussion I had to address both scenereos though, in case you don't see this and respond. I get really irritated with blind people who think they are entitled to first class upgrades or to sit in the bulkhead row. There are 2 rows of standard, small, cramped coach class seats at the Seeing Eye and we learn how to put our dogs in there properly, and are expected to do so. All the schools teach the students this. I specifically dislike the bulkhead row because it allows the dog to sprawl out which makes them harder to control and their paws harder to account for. Also, if you travel with multiple service dogs, the compartmentalizing effect of pushing each dog under a different seat in the row ahead of you makes things much easier. fAlso, for many dogs, the security of feeling like they are securely snugged in to a den made by your legs and the seat ahead of you makes flying easier. I have actually had to fight with ignorant gait agents who argued I had to take the bulkhead. "Excuse me? I may sit in a normal god damn seat if I want to." I've had them call me mean for putting my dog under a seat, even for flying with a dog at all. Stupid morons. Anyway, to recap in brief. If it was a standard coach class seat, get over yourself, call your school and get a refresher on how to properly situate your dog and if it was not a standard coach class seat, then give the airline hell, because you are right that our dogs need a safe and comfortable place to ride, and you should not be charged additionally just to get a seat where your dog fits. Finally, if it was an unusually small seat, and there are rows of seats larger than it, but smaller than the bulk head on the aircraft, standard coach class seats, try asking for one of those, as it's more reasonable, and totally workable, unless your guide dog is humungus, in which rare case you have my sympathies.

## Post 15 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Wednesday, 23-Jan-2013 21:03:27

I had to sit in a seat with a wall in frunt of me and a piece of wood that went across under my seet so my dog couldn't go under in frunt of me or under me. She had to lay going side ways because there just wasn't any room for her to lay down any other way and The wood blocked her from going under my seet and like I said, there was a wall in frunt of me and it was verry close so no foot room.

## Post 16 by SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today (LivingLifeAndLovingItToo) on Friday, 25-Jan-2013 16:17:33

For the situation the last poster described, yeah, I hear you. That sucks royally. I just take everything with a grain of salt, until I get clarification, because I've witnessed way too many guide dog handlers complaining about standard, totally workable coach class seating on airplanes or insisting their guide dogs don't fit in standard front facing bus seats, with their dogs in the isles, tripping people up, when the schools give very clear instruction on how to situate one's dog in ordinary seating situations on public transpertation. So, I am careful. I do hear what you are saying though, and if your experience is the sort of thing the origional poster who started this topic is talking about, then I, obviously, agree with them as well. If not, then, no.

## Post 17 by Siriusly Severus (The ESTJ 1w9 3w4 6w7 The Taskmaste) on Saturday, 23-Mar-2013 21:26:36

sensually beautifully said, I didn't know that or anything about guide dogs never had one or will but I'll say this don't complain and don't sue if you don't like that company and their "unaccommodating attitudes" then go find yourself someone else to do business with delta is not putting a gun to your head and saying, well ma'am if you don't buy seats with us then we'll kill you.
grow up!

## Post 18 by booklover256 (Veteran Zoner) on Sunday, 24-Mar-2013 13:10:01

This was a while ago, but the seat was entirely too small. There was no room for her to get nder my seat, or the seat in front of me because of obstructions. So the only space she had was directly on the floor. She is a very small dog as well, and if she couldn't fit, I don't think any guide dog could. People frequently think she is training, because she is tiny and still looks like a puppy. I have never been in the front seat of a car, even very small compact ones where she could not fit. I am perfectly aware of how to situate my dog on public transit, but in tis case there was just no room at all. I was not asking for first class, but the bulkhead in this case was considerably larger than the other rows, and after requesting it ahead of time, I was told I would be accomodated. I was not told I would need to pay twenty dollars extra, or any rules about "economy comfort" Also, it is an ongoing issue. GDUI is fighting it and dealing with it, so this is far from me just ranting because I don't know how to fit my dog under a seat.

## Post 19 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Sunday, 24-Mar-2013 13:15:23

Booklover, they're still young and idealistic, and still think the world is black and white and full of easy answers.

## Post 20 by booklover256 (Veteran Zoner) on Sunday, 24-Mar-2013 13:17:13

Probably very true. I just forget, because I've never been that way. I appreciate the increased perspective.

## Post 21 by SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today (LivingLifeAndLovingItToo) on Thursday, 04-Apr-2013 17:07:15

To poster 17. You are why we have to fight for our rights. So, you think the wheelchair user should just go to another restaurant with a ramp because this one has stairs? You think the deaf individual should just go pick another movie to see because the one they want doesn't have close captioning? How about you, you're blind, why don't you just go shop or post on that other website because our website has visual only capsia and you can just go somewhere else? Hey black people from the 50s, we don't want you using our drinking fountain, besides there's a perfectly good one right over there. Give me a freaken break. How sick. And, please use your brain, for some people, depending on where they want to fly, maybe Delta is the only option, and it is illegal for them to charge an extra fee for a reasonable accomidation, and based on the clarification by the origional poster, it is absolutely a case of wanting a reasonable accomidation. To poster 19, erm, how old do you think I am? I'm an adult, a mother, a wife, a guide dog handler of 10 years, so I don't know what the young and idealistic bit is about. To Poster 18, who was also poster 20. That's presicely why I saught clarification, and made 1 statement for 1 case and 1 for the oposite case, exactly because I don't know you or your dog. I commented on the situation in general, and the two ways I see these sorts of things play out. Reading your description of your dog, I can see why you would be pissed off, and I agree with you. That must be an unbelievably small seat, holy crap. I have seen tons of lidgitimate complaints about some really unfair access issues, and I have also seen tons of unfounded, wining complaints from lazy or neglegent service dog handlers, so I decided I had to speak to the issue from both possible sides, for the purposes of discussion. Now that I have more information I can totally and publically state that I back you 100%, but I wasn't going to give either my sympathy or my ire, my support or my discrediting, my afirmation or my condemnation to anyone I didn't know, with a situation I didn't have enough information about. I'm glad that a larger organization is stepping up and helping to deal with this too. Doesn't it really surprise you sometimes how this long after the ADA was passed and with all of the intervening time full of public service announcements, information campanes and education to the general public every day from thousands, probably at least a million PWDs that these things still happen?

## Post 22 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Thursday, 04-Apr-2013 17:22:37

Clearly, I was wrong. That is all.

## Post 23 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Saturday, 06-Apr-2013 15:48:54

I do not fly on a regular basis, but of all the times I've flown, I never sat in a row where it was possible to scoot a guide dog under a seat.
Even when I flew home from getting my guide dog in New York last year, the only option for him was the floor space in front of me and the passenger beside me. The woman who was assigned to sit next to me got irritated with me because she had a carry on bag that had to go on the floor; it contained a rat dog, so she couldn't put it in the overhead storage. A flight attendant switched seats with her, so it wasn't a big deal.
I would have appreciated a seat with more floor space in front of it, but I did not throw a fit when they told me bulkhead seating was not available for me.

## Post 24 by gizmobear (move over school!) on Sunday, 15-Dec-2013 18:05:39

fuck it. i always ask and get bulkhead. once have i thrown a fit for not getting it! i could care less or give two fucks about the percetion of ,"us" blind people. its all about flying my poor scared dog in comfort. think about it. you are a dog. you are not meant to fly. hell its a dog not a bird! so why not let him sprawl out! its only for some hours! yes, we are sitting in the emergency exit. best hope there is no emergency or else! besides if there is. what are the odds we will make it alive? hell we are some thousand of feet up in the skies! kiss your ass goodbye!

## Post 25 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 15-Dec-2013 18:58:30

I've never not gotten bulkhead seating when I asked for it. Sometimes I've gotten comped first class seating when bulkhead wasn't available. That's one of the reasons why I like flying with southwest though. They have pick your own seating, no assigned seats. all you have to do is go up to the counter at the gate and say, "Could I sit in one of the bulkhead seats for my guide dog". I doubt anyone will turn you away.

## Post 26 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 15-Dec-2013 19:01:00

Oh, and there's a reason you don't sit in the emergency exit aisle. If you'd like to know what that reason is, tell me what the sign on the door says. While you're struggling to remember the sign you can't read, you'll have your answer. The post about them was rather stupid anyway. Most plane accidents are easily survivable, even if you are thousands of feet up. Rarely do planes explode in midair and plummet down. They're designed to glide hundreds of miles before touching down. The landing might not be comfortable and smooth, but you'll survive it. The escape doors are for water landings and if there's a fire. You not being able to operate them can cost lives. That's why we're not allowed to sit there.

## Post 27 by rdfreak (THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE-BLUE KANGA-KICKIN AUSIE) on Sunday, 15-Dec-2013 23:22:16

This is interesting. I always heard that guide dog users get a double seat, usually up the front, and this is what happened the first two times I flew interstate with my dog guide. However, earlier this year when I flew, I was put in a row a fair way back; we still got the isle to ourselves but it was more squashy naturally. It wasn't really too bad in the end but up the front is definitely easier.
(I'm in Australia so not sure how different the rules are.)

## Post 28 by rdfreak (THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE-BLUE KANGA-KICKIN AUSIE) on Sunday, 15-Dec-2013 23:23:51

ah Yes Gismo, my dog hates flying and the where we were sitting in contrast from the second to the third time didn't make a difference.

## Post 29 by CrazyMusician (If I don't post to your topic, it's cuz I don't give a rip about it!) on Monday, 16-Dec-2013 0:25:06

I am going to take Jenn on her first plane ride with me in January... am a little worried about it, but both of the local Canadian airlines have outlined their policies, as well as confirmed the guidelines set forth by the Canadian transportation industry. My dog needs to fit either under the seat in front of me or on the floor by my feet, but if that does not work, the airline will comp a 2nd seat for me and Jenny.
Looking forward to the adventure!
Kate

## Post 30 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 16-Dec-2013 7:10:47

Don't be nervous. Flying with a guide dog really isn't difficult. Most of the time they've been on planes before, or if they haven't they've at least been on a vehicle. What worked for me is during the more stressful parts of the flight, IE taking off, landings, turbulence, reach down and give her a pat. If she sees that you're fine and relaxed, she'll be fine and relaxed. You might also consider asking the flight attendant if they're ok letting you take off the harness for the flight. It'll allow her to get a bit more comfortable in the spot she's given. Lastly, when you land, ask the flight attendant for an ice cube or two in a cup. Let her chew them, it helps adjust her ears to the change in pressure. You and her will be just fine, don't worry. But, if you have any questions, send me a message. I'd be happy to try an answer them if I can.

## Post 31 by CrazyMusician (If I don't post to your topic, it's cuz I don't give a rip about it!) on Monday, 27-Jan-2014 10:19:12

So, first plane journey complete!
So, here's the story. Airline #1 (flying to our destination) moved us to the bulkhead for flight #1, and to priority seating for flight #2. Say what you want, but it was a good set-up for a first flight, especially since Jenny was TERRIFIED! I did not request this seating, but was asked if it would be helpful by the flight attendant... I was not about to say no. Flight #1 Jenny was shaky and antsy and really really REALLY wanted comfort, which I obliged, but she still shook for most of the 1.5hr flight. The second flight, she got down on the floor, laid down and stayed there like she'd been flying for years, getting up only on landing when she put her head on my lap.
Airline #2 (flying home) had us in a basic economy-style seat, which was a bit of an adventure. I asked if it was possible to move us to the bulkhead seat, but there were three guide dogs on the first leg of the trip, so no dice. Again, first leg of the trip she shook the whole way, and the second leg she just laid down and slept. As for room, it was a tight squeeze for her. She finally found a spot that was comfortable for both her, me, and my teammate sitting beside me (although during takeoff she decided to sit up... under his legs!) Since we did in-home training, we didn't have a class or anything on flying, which I wish we had...
Kate

## Post 32 by Dolce Eleganza (I'll have the last word, thank you!) on Monday, 27-Jan-2014 12:01:09

Cody and others, Kate, thank you for all the tips. I'll read back on all these posts when I fly with my guide this year. My training is in 3 months. Anyhow I just wanted to say that we may have good experiences, but the bad experiences help us learn about the dog too. :)

## Post 33 by HauntedReverie (doing the bad mango) on Saturday, 01-Feb-2014 1:11:57

Feel free to tell me what a terrible handler I am and how I'm doing everything wrong wrong wrong, but this is what I did, along with a friend from the Seeing Eye when we flew home. The Seeing Eye says that dogs should be able to fit beneath the seat ahead of you. They might have even told us to take the harnesses off to accomplish this, but don't quote me.
Took the window and middle seat, with a stranger in the aisle.
Took off harnesses and put them down between wall and seat by the window while the flight attendant was busy.
Coaxed dogs under seats in front of us, stowing backpacks overhead. (I kept my purse with me.)
Had a nice flight with accidental free snackboxes and Coke.
I don't know what I'd do if the attendant bitched about the harness. I've only been in this situation once.
My dog isn't a toy poodle by any stretch of the imagination (she's a black lab) but granted, has a smaller frame. About 55 pounds or so.
Before I got my dog, I flew in bulkhead with my boyfriend and his dog who sprawled out over the whole damn row of thre seats and was all up in my foot business. (They gave us the whole row.)
If I'm going to have neighbors in bulkhead, I think it's their right to have their own footspace, and not to have a dog taking it up. Given the chance, labs will sprawl. She fits under a seat just fine without harness, and that gives me peace of mind. She has her own demarcated den, and she can't sprawl out. She was totally chill the first time we flew. And I figure harness or no, if the plane has an accident, having it on won't make a bit of difference in her state of mind thirty thousand feet in the air. Not like she's going to have room to guide.
PS, I'll always ask for the window seat. Makes it easier when people don't have to crawl over you or the dog to go pee every half hour.

## Post 34 by CrazyMusician (If I don't post to your topic, it's cuz I don't give a rip about it!) on Sunday, 02-Feb-2014 11:47:43

Agreed, Cala,
I am taking more flights to Portland this weekend, so will have MORE flying adventures with Jenny. On the flight last weekend, I took off her harness and it was MUCh more comfortable. I just shoved the harness under the seat in front of me, and she squeezed into the rest of the space.
Kate

## Post 35 by CrazyMusician (If I don't post to your topic, it's cuz I don't give a rip about it!) on Monday, 10-Feb-2014 14:20:45

We flew to Portland this past weekend, and it was not a great flight for us. It was one of those 20-row propeller planes (VERY loud!). No bulk-head, smaller seating, a bar under my seat and no little cocoon for Jenny, who spent most of the flight sprawled on the floor with my teammate and I. her harness was off, so I didn't mind her getting a little TLC from my teammate, but on the first flight back I though the landing was going to give her a panic attack! I was so worried about her working after that that I kept her in a heal and walked sighted guide.
Any pointers on these planes?
Kate