# Get off the cross, use the wood, build a briddg and get over it.

Category: Let's talk

## Post 1 by Nem (I just keep on posting!) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 9:38:05

raceism, is it an offence of the mind? If your convicted of a murder you get 5 to ten years. If your convicted of a murder and it's assumed and able to be proven that it's a hate crime you can add 5 years to your 10 year sentense. Is raceism another form of bullying? Everyone gets teased, for things like hair color eye color, disability, why shouldn't skin color fall under the umbralla of bullying?

## Post 2 by Senior (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 9:46:54

It should and I thought it did. It would be better if posessing views of hatred against people because of their characteristics such as race, gender, sexual orientation or disability etc landed you a good sentence in prison where your mind would be repaired and transformed into something more acceptable.

## Post 3 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 9:59:56

unfortunately, we can't just convict people because they have certain viewpoints, we have to understand that thought and opinion are not the same as action.
However once that thought and opinion are acted upon in a negetive fashan, it is up to governments to set a strict example of those people to the general public.
I think that much of this racism is taught by the parents and it's up to schools and learning institutions to recticfy these teachings and stop the circle.

## Post 4 by wildebrew (We promised the world we'd tame it, what were we hoping for?) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 11:08:14

I totally agree on that, why is race made out to be such a big deal, isn't it just another attribute of you, like our hair color etc. Sure races may have slight culttural differences and even different values but, heck, different income classes have different values, different families do, depending on the country of origin, religion, experiences and so forth, why does race have to come into that picture at all. It's always mae out to be such a big deal and I've never seen why. I got friends from all races, a guy in my group found it funny that it took me 18 months to find out that he was, in fact, black and quite frankly I just didn't care, I didn't go around asking. Sometimes I can tell races from the accents but with him I didn't trace and accent and I'm not really into analyzing all this, people are people, as Depeche Mode so cleverly named their song.
cheers
-B

## Post 5 by Nem (I just keep on posting!) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 13:04:47

Waynderful Wangel are you implying that are prison system reforms criminals? It sounds as if your saying send them to prison, reform their way of thinking then let them go. Just one thing, a murder is a murder reguardless of the color of someone's skin. Wildabrew while people are people, as long as there is a seperation of people based on color of one's skin, it does matter. Does raceism depend more on color of skin, or is it more to do with culture. We think of raceism as black and white, but does that mean that a hispanic cannot feel raceism? Or an Icelandic for that matter? Is it color or is it culture?

## Post 6 by Senior (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 17:56:51

Well Racism is a combination of things which include colour and culture. The point about the education of people is very true. I know for a fact that the education system of the UK doesn't tell people why we've got people from the Caribbean and Indian Subcontinent in this country. I think if everyone had a better understanding of the reasons why people are where they are, there'd definitely be less racism. Reformation of criminals already happens in prisons so my proposal isn't radical, it's just an extention of current policy. I think an issue which can stimulate racism is people coming to a country without the ability to speak the language. I find that unacceptable. I don't agree with deportations, the people can return. illegal imigration should be a criminal offence which carries a prison sentence. Some people are misslead into coming abroad though. They may not be able to speak say English when they come to the UK, and people may think they've just come to take benefits, when really they've been trafficked. They should therefore escape with deportation instead. Another cause of racism is segregation. There should be no black community, no asian community or in Australias case no Lebonese community. It's wrong for each group to be separated into communities and I think people especially afro-caribbean people seem to emphasise the separate community idea too heavily. Everyone should be fully intigrated. We can prevent segregation through housing policies which mean that all areas are mixed, having no schools which are aimed at various sections of the local population such as Church of England schools or even blind schools, and abolishing events aimed specifically at sections of the community such as black history month. We don't have white history 11 months with the exception o the black history month. I can tell you that the Asians hate it when the blacks try to bring them down to that level. Why should history be separated accordidng to colour? It's not our faults that black history doesn't include people like Henry 8, great empires like the roman one, great societies like ancient greaks, great ideological revolution like that of the French, great military blunders like the Crimean war. My knowledge of black history includes only one thing. Slavery. It's important that it is taught obviously. I think though since black and Asian people contributed to the world wars, their contribution should be recognised since it was significant and it at least promotes a kind of togetherness.

## Post 7 by lights_rage (I just keep on posting!) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 18:34:46

I agree racism should have been a word stripped from the dictionary but hey no one listens to me so yeah.,

## Post 8 by Godzilla-On-Toast (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 24-Jan-2006 23:41:38

My question is, what is so attractive about racism. Why do people think racism will somehow benefit them instead of do harm? Is there just something about human nature that says, "Dammit, if I don't find a reason to hate somebody, anybody, for any reason, and maybe beat them up or kill them because of my hate, my life will be so empty and meaningless." What do you think goes on in the mind of a racist and how do you think they justify it?

## Post 9 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 2:50:55

I think that a lot of racism is taught at a young age. And this can be said to be the case in a number of families in my country at least. On one hand, you have the kids in the bush who are not exposed to much cultural difference and there fore grow to fear/hate culture that is different to what they know.
On the other hand You have the kids in the cities who are exposed on a daily basis to many different cultures. This is generally reguarded as a good thing, but, multi culturalism isn't with out its bad points.
To some groups multi culturalism can be seen as a form of seperatism, and there fore they grow iether suspicious or hateful of it because it promotes difference.
TWW, i agree that there is deffinit need to reform schools so that there is more of a feeling of togetherness, but, in our schools at least we have the fact that many people will sort out people of their own race and befriend them becausethey have something in common. Multi culturalism, whilst it is a great tool against racism, also works in favour of it.
It breeds agression amongst those who disagree, just look at any two sides of a civil war.
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to be proud of your heratige i'm saying that being proud of that heritage canbe misinterpreted as seperatism and a lack of desire to be part of your community.
I also agree that there needs to be more education as to why there are so many different nationalities in different countries.
For example, the imigration of thousands of refugees from the vietnam war or perhaps persecution in countries such as sudan or other arab countries.

## Post 10 by KC8PNL (The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 3:45:06

I must agree with the previous post. The thing that u must understand about any society, especially any capitolistic one, is that there is a great amount of inequality amongst its members. So how is this class determined? Well, in my opinion, society determines who deserves what. How this is done is through what is deemed as the most socially acceptable type of jobs and what this society views as a valuable skill or ability to reward. The higher the social value in whatever skill or trait it is that you possess, posatively corellates with your social position. How is this related to race you ask? Well, once a family has two parents who don't make a lot of money, there children are sent to less wealthy schools with teachers who have lower skill levels, thus ultimately less preparing the less wealthy to stay that way. Those on the higher end of the social scale like their power and position, so they don't want to help get these kids on equal footing. And, since impoverished families generally consist of single mothers or 2 parents who work long hours, they couldn't teach their children any of the social skills necissary to get along with the rest of the population if they wanted to, but this is leading the topic astray, so back to it. From a psychological perspective, lots of literature says that we generally like those who are most similar to us, or those that share some common goal to our own. Given this, it seems as no surprise that we have a society divided by race. And, if it wasn't race, it would be something else. So, in sum, discrimination seems inevidable. And, once the problem has gone as far as it has already, reversing it's effects seem almost impossible, and would yield many social changes that higher class members would not like at all. Because, it would mean that they would have to sacrifice more of their power and wealth for others. As Karl Marx said, there are the haves, and here are the have nots, end of storry. I could probably write a book on this entire issue, because it's a much deeper one that what is being discussed here, but I don't have the time nor the energy to do so.

## Post 11 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 4:06:17

i agree with this previous post. People often sort out those who will have undergone similar social experiences so that they can find companionship in those who will understand. This is why rich and poor people can be found concentrated in different areas, they are more comfortable around those who are most like them. The same can be said for race. If you look at the islamic students from my school, you'd find that most of them are friends with one another, this doesn't mean that they don't have non islamic friends, rthey just feel most comfortable with people who understand them.
but, what would happen if you were to separate these peer, cultural groups you ask? well, It would be like putting a young person in an old folks home and telling them to live there with no contact with other young people for a year.
With no one to relate to, no one to really identify with, mental illnesses such as depression are iminent.
And this means that abolishing things like multiculturalism could also adversely harm many people, in fact, the tole it would take may be more than it would benifit society in general.

## Post 12 by KC8PNL (The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 4:35:32

Exactly. People need to see themselves in others and if they don't do this, they will never develop an identity of their own. This starts when a child is only weeks old with something psychologist Alan Shore called impathic mirroring. Impathic mirroring happens when a mother ccoos back at her baby, or imitates what the child does. This, according to shore, authenticates itself through this process.What he has found from many years of studying individuals, though the research is inconclusive due to many variables, but he has found that parents who give there children more impathic mirroring, generally have less cases of depression later in life. So, I would agree with this. If a person doesn't have others who share his or her belief or any other comonalities, this would create disinonance within this person and it would then lead to depression. I hope this make sense.

## Post 13 by OrangeDolphinSpirit (Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how popular it remains?) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 15:27:22

LOL, is racism the same as multiculturalism? Let me look that up. Here are the separate definitions for the words, according to dictionary.com.
Racism
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
>
Multiculturalism
1. Of, relating to, or including several cultures.
2. Of or relating to a social or educational theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture.
Those two words sound like complete opposites to me. Loui, were you trying to say that abolishing racism would be a bad thing? Or were you just trying to use multiculturalism interchangeably?
To me it sounds like multiculturalism has a more positive connotation than racism does. Racism involves being prejudice against someone because of their race, and multiculturalism is the idea that you're accepting of everyone's cultures no matter what race they are.
DF, I think that racism can be considered a form of bullying because if someone can pick on you for your hair color or disability, why not add skin color into the equation too? The whole idea is about bullies feeling superior because they feel they're better than the person they're picking on, right? It's kind of stupid, really. I don't get how certain things are OK, and others are not. You can be mean to someone because they're crippled and no one thinks twice about it, but as soon as skin color is brought into the picture, it's suddenly a hate crime. Does that make any sense? jeepers creepers.

## Post 14 by Senior (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 16:34:26

There is definitely more racism among poor people that I know of than rich people. This is mainly due to ignorance and looking to blame others for ill-fortune the racist experiences. Multiculturalism is great in principal, but something which is better is intigrated culture, a culture made up of all the cultures of a population blended into each other. I think traditionalist imigrants who bring up their children strictly encourage them not to mix too closely with don't share their values, because they fear that their children may not be as perfect as they'd like. Also tough, people who tried to intigrate in the early stages of imigration, struggled because the natives didn't want anything to do with them in the UK and so when they moved in, the whites moved out. Multiculturalism is a plural existance of cultures, just like racism it encourages separation. Intigration though brings people together, so if all societies had an intigrational policy then noone would be separated on racial lines. I can understand how a young person wouldn't want to be clustered with a load of old people, however people of similar ages shouldn't be different just because of their ethnicity. This is a problem created by traditionalists and multiculturalists which could have been avoided and if it was, and everyone was intigrated then people would mix more easily because they'd have more in common.

## Post 15 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 16:57:08

allie, muy point is that multiculturalism encourages racism.
While it is a good thing for people to be awhere of their differences from others and learn to respect them, It also gives rise to hatred of those particular differences.

## Post 16 by Nem (I just keep on posting!) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 17:37:55

Waynderful Wangel to say that criminals come out of prison reformed is a joke. Sorry but if you look at the stats in reguards to repeat offenders you'll learn what most already know. There is no reform in prison. Unless that is you count learning to be a better criminal. You talked about intigrated culture. What happenes to years of tradition, how do or will people know where they come from?

## Post 17 by OrangeDolphinSpirit (Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how popular it remains?) on Wednesday, 25-Jan-2006 23:57:25

Oh OK, Loui. I get it now. *GRIN*

## Post 18 by Godzilla-On-Toast (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Thursday, 26-Jan-2006 6:14:55

So these days, at least in America, are the haves still rich white people? And what about white racist or white supremacist groups? What are they all about? Are they just a bunch of paranoid organized have-nots?

## Post 19 by Manwe (The Dark Lord) on Thursday, 26-Jan-2006 8:21:26

people whether you look at culture or what ever, people will always find friendships or comfort with those who you gell with the most. people find comfort or strength from those who can reach them best. there's always going to be incompatibility, i think from a VI's point of view we don't look at skin colour, so that doesn't bother most of us. or it shouldn't do at any rate. the visual side of rasism is just that visual, it doesn't and shouldn't apply to blind folks at all. Culture is another matter altogether. there are some cultures that will never easily mix, west and eastern cultures for example, they are like to magnits with both the magnetic north's pointing at each other because the values are so different. I'm not saying it's wrong but equally you have to accept the facts as they are. there are some cases where by 2 people for example can intigrate their belief systems and indeed their cultures into each other. that's a good thing and you should never ever forget your cultural background. you should always bring that with you that much is for certain. But by definition, humans we are social animals, and the majority of us function better in a group or unit, whether that be a social group or unit or a family setting. We do that by choosing who we are most compatible with. that is the nature of humans. Rasism if you ask me is just a visual excuse not to like someone. and that's all that it is, nothing more or less. not to like or just to claim incompatibility just because they can because they can't be bothered to look and to think deeper than that. you see that all the time, not even with race or culture, what about when you are looking for that someone in your life, how many people look at someone and it doesn't matter how good a person they are, if there's some physical feature that turns them off then they just bypass it. then they make the classic mistake, they find someone who's visually appealing and what happens, you see that all the time. alot of this is really humans being what we are. sometimes we look for difference when we shouldn't simply because we can.

## Post 20 by Nem (I just keep on posting!) on Thursday, 26-Jan-2006 11:45:00

Oh dark lord, that was well said! I humbel my self in your smarts.

## Post 21 by Senior (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Thursday, 26-Jan-2006 17:26:55

Prisons do have mecanisms to reform people and it is attempted. It's not always successful. In order for there to be an intigrated culture, the traditions of each section of the culture can be included, except the harmful or restrictive ones. Not all tradition is good, and people can dstuddy history to find out about the past. As for post 19, the racism in Boznia-Herzegovina wasn't based on visual appearence, nationalism is also a cause of racism. There are a lot of visually impaired racists and it's a national thing. They feel that they can still belong to a race, and be superior to imigrants or ethnick minorities. Also, British Pakistany blind people have been racist to British Indian blind people in my presence before. This is all to do with nationalism, and caused by people not letting go. Some of the internal problems of ethnick minorities are caused by their lack of will to let go and move to the future instead of clinging to the past.

## Post 22 by Manwe (The Dark Lord) on Thursday, 26-Jan-2006 19:12:33

well we humans tend to remember the passed. it takes a big person to say they remember the passed and say they want to learn from it. it takes an even bigger person to actually learn from it. unfortunately moving on isn't the easiest of things to do, that goes for anything and everything. whether it be moving on from a relationship, or 2 warring nations making piece and learning to trust each other again after all the hate properganda spread about during war times and all the atrosities caused in war. we humans tend to have long memories especially when it comes to hard times or times where by we were burn't in some way. that's our nature at work here. some can cope with it far better than others. that's unfortunate but to totally get rid of rasism and the like you'll have to totally restructure human nature. it's just not going to happen unfortunately. we may gain some mastery over it, but nature is nature at the end of the day, it's the greatest force in existents because nature is existents.

## Post 23 by Godzilla-On-Toast (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 27-Jan-2006 6:19:23

And most humans are going to go for what's easy, and not what's best or ideal, so it's just easier to go along with the crowd if the crowd has racist attitudes. Don't want to be rejected for nonconforming or just being a weirdo or even a traitor, right? Also, in reference to post 19, there are plenty of blind racists. You don't have to look at a person to be racist. Not only do people hold nationalistic attitudes, but they might grow up around ideas and stereotypes that are just so drummed into them that the thought process is second nature.

## Post 24 by Manwe (The Dark Lord) on Saturday, 28-Jan-2006 10:10:14

so the question is, is racism a personal choice or is it something like many things is passed down?

## Post 25 by Godzilla-On-Toast (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 28-Jan-2006 16:44:39

My personal opinion is that it's something that's either passed down or just part of the environment. I would imagine there's a lot more scholarly material out there that will either confirm or deny what I just said, but it's how I see things.
There is also the chance that if somebody develops as a racist, life experiences might turn them around, but again, I have no written proof of this.

## Post 26 by Manwe (The Dark Lord) on Saturday, 28-Jan-2006 18:41:05

no sometimes there is no written proof, like many things it's just life being what it is.

## Post 27 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Saturday, 28-Jan-2006 22:45:47

i think that racism is something that has to be tought. you have to teach a child to hate as Martin Luther King said. All babies are born good, it's what we give them in love and feed them in education that makes the difference.
A child only has their own beliefs when they chalenge the beliefs that others have instilled in them. Also i think that it's just an impossibility to ever think that racism will not be present in society. When we have so many different cultures within society and so many belief systems exist inside those groups, it's impossible to ever expect that there should be no racism whatsoever. However, it's how we choose to deal with that racism that really counts.
I have already stated why it's not a good thing to remove all cultural barriors forcibly, but let me see if i have a better and perhaps more relevant explanation. I have said that the separation of cultural groups can be lead to sickness and depression. This is a documented fact, just look at how the Native american indian people or the aboriginal people suffered from the disposession and dispersal from and of their traditional lands. Whilst there is a lot of similarities between groups of the same age, for example, school children, there will always be a cultural barrior that is quite often imovable. It's unfair to expect people to forget about their own culture...and, if we were to do so, what culture should we follow? white, black? or perhaps none at all? wouldn't that make for a boring and mundane society? Anyone who thinks this is ok, i suggest you read 1984 by George Orwell or Brave New World by Aldus Huxley and just take stock of the lessons within. If you strip society down so far, take all that makes society itself away, then you lose the very essance of humanity.

## Post 28 by KC8PNL (The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.) on Saturday, 28-Jan-2006 23:13:21

Well, since I've only just begun reading 1984, I can't really ciscuss it's contents at this point. However, I think that getting rid of culture is impossible, since it is one thing that you can not avoid. Further, what makes society what it is, is inequality. If it's not discrimination based on race, it'll be something else. I do agree that children should be taught to be more tolerant of other cultures/sub cultures, because this is when the child is most likely to learn. I do not believe that racism is a inherited trait biologically, but one acquired due to environmental experiences