# Choosing to be childless

Category: Let's talk

## Post 1 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 5:52:46

"I'm never having kids." It started out as something I mumbled under my breath whenever I witnessed a child screaming like a demon in the grocery store or running around the inside of the public library as if it was a playground. But what opened my eyes to the possibility of never becoming a parent was my goalball coach. I was fourteen when I started training with her, and during a private talk we had when I was spending the night at her house, I discovered that she was in her early forties and childless by choice. She said that her family and friends always told her she would change her mind, until she reached her forties and they finally realized she was serious.
After that conversation, I asked myself why I wanted children. When all I could come up with was "I don't know," I knew I had some research and examining to do. I started scrutinizing children and parenthood. What are the ups and downs to both? I started reading different articles and asking different parents questions. I read and asked about pregnancy, caring for infants, raising a teenager, , and the cost of raising a child. I learned that there were more downs than ups, and decided that having children is not for me.
First, I don't even want to experience pregnancy. I haven't heard anything good about it, and pregnant women seem like a different species to me. Of course, every woman has a different pregnancy with each child. But none of this sounds good to me: morning sickness, excessive gas, frequent urination, increased hair-growth, getting fat, hormonal changes, emotional sensitivity, and I'll bet that's not half of it. That's one boat I most definitely will not board.
Before I talk about caring for a baby, let's just look at the little trinkets themselves. They poop and poop and poop some more, and gain weight and get pudgy. That's not adorable, Actually, that's quite repugnant. On top of that, you can't pick up a baby without something oozing from them whether it be in their diaper or on your shirt. Spitting up has to be the most repulsive thing a baby can do. Also, none of the sounds an infant makes are precious or cute, but disgusting as well. Their crying, laughing, and gurgling does not sound natural to me. I can't even tolerate the crying of a snot-nosed crumb-snatcher. If I'm seated at a restaurant, and there's akid within my immediate vicinity, I have to move. I'd rather sit in the smokers' section than sit a table away from a wailing rugrat.
As far as caring for a kid, tell me what's exciting about not getting sufficient sleep for three months. Getting up in the middle of the night and performing stupid tricks until a kid stops crying doesn't sound fun. And when they have better motor skills, they start getting into everything, even things you didn't think were possible, so you have to child-proof your whole life until their four. Then it such a hassel to get a kid to eat, sleep, and use the toilet and you've got to make it cutesy and fun just so they can live healthily without ruining their clothes and the carpet.
From the parenting aspect, kids cost a fortune! They don't get less expensive as time progresses either. They'll always need new clothes, toys, school supplies, technology, one day, they'll want cosmetics too, and a car. Oh, and after that, they have to go to college which gets more expensive by the year. Squeeze in all the miscellaneous things, and you're in debt up to your neck.
So there you are. I don't like kids; I don't want them, and I'll say it: I'm never having them. And trust me, I have experience with them. I've been an aunt since age seven, and by the time the fate of our sad, sorry nation is decided next Tuesday, I'll be an aunt for the sixth time. Yes, I love my nieces and nephews. I don't spend as much time with them as other aunts and uncles would, but I try to give them a little attention every time they come over. They know I like my privacy, so they don't bother me much. Perfect.
For those people who want to say: "But you were a kid once."
Oh really? No one asks to be conceived and born. I was a self-important asshole and a high school freshman once too, but I don't like those either.
As far as I'm concerned, there are no benefits to parenting. It's taxing emotionally, mentally, and physically. Parents invest so much and they have so much to lose. Raising a child is probably the most complicated thing a person can do. There are so many ways to do it and one mistake can unravel everything you've done. Everyone will criticize parents whether they do what's wrong or right, and that definition changes for everyone. Parents say that there is a good side to having children, but anyone who says parenting is wonderful and absolutely delightful is lying. It's been proven that parents are more depressed than their childless counterparts. It's also been proven that parents IQ can drop as many as 20 points.
By choosing not to have children, I have nothing to lose and I make my life that much easier. I will plan around my own schedule, and when I get home from work, I will be able to dress-down and sit down to a glass of wine and a good book without three people approaching me asking: "Can you ...," "will you ...," "I need you to ...," or "Did you remember that ...?" I know that life is not smooth-sailing for anyone, but if I can eliminate one complication that can lead to many more, why not?
I'm never becoming a parent, and I'm proud of that decision. I'm tired of all the fools who tell me: "Oh, you'll change your mind one day." No, I won't. I'm opting out of being a slave, and choosing to live a life of freedom instead of misery.
Too, I hate it when people say they feel sorry for the people who don't have kids. How about feeling sorry for the kids who have parents who mistreat them or don't care about them at all.
Okay, now that my rant is done for now, anyone feel the same way or similar?

## Post 2 by Miss M (move over school!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 9:46:16

Amen.

## Post 3 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 12:18:53

Absolutely amen to your post, Inquisitive. It's actually a very brave post to make, because views like yours, apparently Miss M's, and definitely mine, are not popular ones in our society. People don't like to hear the things you had to say, which by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with, so I won't bother re-writing it in my own words. It's not popular in our society to feel the way we do, and, chances are, your post will piss off a lot of the parents on this site. It's not something parents like to hear.
I knew from about the age of 16 that I did not want children, either. We won't even talk about what I want to do to most kids in public. Like you, I have plenty of nieces and one nephew, and that's more than enough for me. If I ever started thinking I wanted kids, all I had to go do was spend time around them. I love them dearly, and I'd do whatever I could for them. If someone hurt them, that person would seriously be on my shit-list. But being around them, watching what my sisters go through, as well as my friends who are parents, only cemented the fact.
Like you, everyone told me I'd change my mind. Everyone told me that it wasn't the same, watching my nieces, that I'd be more attached to my own kids, I'd have patience with my own kids. That's crap, and I'm honest enough to admit it. I'd have less. One of the best things about other people's children is that you can give them back to their parents. You can't do that when you are the parent. If I'm so eager to give them back, why would I want ones that I can't?
There are also medical reasons for my not wanting children. Any child I have has a 50/50 shot of inheriting the cancer that blinded me. Even if I did want kids, I'm not willing to take that risk. As such, I got my tubes tied at the age of 22. All I gave my OB/GYN were the medical reasons, not the others, but that was enough that she decided to do the surgery, even though I was very young. I've not regretted it a day since, in spite of people's dire warnings that I would. It's actually given me a sense of immense peace, to know that it's done, and permanent. If you know this about yourself, I'd suggest getting this type of procedure done, if you can talk your doctor into it. It might be a hard sell, but it is possible.
People have called me selfish for my views, for not wanting kids. To that I say, not at all. What would be selfish is to do what I've seen so many others do: bring children into the world, and then make lousy parents, because they realized too late that it was a mistake, that they don't really want the responsibility and the work after all. If you're going to be a parent, or at least a good one, then your child must come first. People who have kids, then realize they didn't really want them tend to continue to put themselves first, to the detriment of their children. Now that, in my opinion, is selfish. Far more so than people like us, who admit to ourselves that we would not make good parents, and as such, have the common sense not to have children.
To those who are parents, and happy as parents, more power to you. I understand the importance of having children. I understand that the human race needs to continue, and for that, we need kids. I know that many of my friends who have children do genuinely love having them, and I'm happy for them. I have nothing against parents. I admire the good ones as much as I can't stand bad ones. So, I'm by no means calling all parents foolish. I just wish that more people would have the practical, rather than a romantic, view of parenthood before they decide to do it.

## Post 4 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 14:52:55

I will also have a procedure done so that I don't have to worry about pregnancy. I, too, was blinded by cancer. The doctors actually wanted to have me fixed after I went through chemotherapy and treatments. I'm glad my parents refused and let me decide.
I will most definitely use the medical reasons to get the same procedure done. My mother supports it and said she will do whatever she can to help me get the surgery and recover from it. She's the person I get along with the least, but I'm glad she's made the offer and will be there for me.

## Post 5 by Agent r08 (Jesus Christ on a chocolate cross) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 16:15:47

I am 35, nearly 36 I went through the utter hell of helping my sister raise her kids, that solidified my ideas of being child free. I really hate children, they're loud obnoxious and expensive.
I see so many guys in grocery stores and the mall with children, and these guys look absolutely miserable. I don't want to end up like that.
My Mom thinks it's a "phase" and thinks I will have children one day. Well the jokes on her cuz as soon as I can I'm getting surgery.
Child free by choice for 35 years and could not be happier.

## Post 6 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 17:53:32

Inquisitive, (sorry, I don't know your name), that's an outrage that your doctors wanted to have you sterilized after you went through treatments! Just like I had a doctor assume that if I got pregnant, I should automatically have an abortion, since I obviously couldn't raise a child because I was blind. He came right out and said that. Also said it would be a shame to bring another blind person into the world. Not a word about the very real risk of cancer, which was my biggest worry. so he made it clear if I ever became pregnant, he'd expect me to, "terminate the fetus," as he put it. It bodes ill for our society when the medical community wants to make those types of decisions for people. I too, am extremely glad your parents stood up for your rights, and wouldn't allow that nonsense.
I'm also glad they are supportive. Mine were, but they were also very worried I would come to regret it, which I have not. If you ever have questions about the procedure, feel free to send me a private message.
Amen also to you, Rob! Wish more guys recognized what you have. Fathers get a bad rap in our society. Many do deserve it, but others do not. Good fathers often don't get the recognition they deserve, but again, nice to see a guy who is honest enough to say what you have.

## Post 7 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 18:54:25

Inquisitive, you're definitely not the only one. I'm 25. That's still young enough for people to patronize me by saying, "Never? Don't say that. You're still young." In other words I'm still too young and stupid to understand what 'never' means and in which circumstances it is appropriate, and my life experiences are irrelevant.
I've observed parents of small children online and in real life who discuss the most trivial aspects of their childrens' lives as though they were fascinating scientific discoveries. Parents also seem to have a unique vocabulary of noises and tones of voice which they use with infants and toddlers. To me it all just seems strange. Fortunately most of the people I am around are smart enough to accept that what I say is what I mean, just as I accept that their children are a part of their lives and who they are.

## Post 8 by OceanDream (An Ocean of Thoughts) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 18:59:04

I'm not sure I share all your beliefs. However, your points are perfectly valid, and I totally respect why you, and others think that way.

## Post 9 by SunshineAndRain (I'm happily married, a mom of two and a fulltime college student.) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 19:58:49

*smiles* You are so right on! *Laughs* I have two lil brats. I love 'em to pieces but God they drive me bonkers! I don't regret my decision to have kids by any means, but I'm proud of people who are honest with themselves & choose not to have them if parenting isnot their thing. It's not for everybody.

## Post 10 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2011 22:56:41

In my opinion a planned decision not to have kids is definitely not selfish. I had one, love her to death though I won't deny any and all the frustrations and more everybody has pointed out on here. After the one I had the deed done so I won't be making anymore.
Ironically, while it is a woman's body when it's her, if you're a man, listen up young fellows: At least in the 90s, there are places won't do it for you without a woman's consent. They're more afraid of a wife or future wife suing over it, or something.
Double standards = double trouble but that's the way it is. Fortunately I was married, and the decision was joint.
And for any pests who bother you about it, tell them if you really change your mind, you'll adopt. I know many childless couples, it isn't as rare as you may think. I have never loved somebody the same as I love my daughter, there is something unique there. I wouldn't say natural or instinctive: humans have very few instincts, but it is powerfult.
But everything you say is accurate about the costs, spit-up, puke, poop, broken devices, dead batteries, needs new clothes, and, above all, wondering if you're doing it right. Especially you men: we fathers are blamed for a lot, especially with daughters, and assumed to be wrong more often than ambivalent, let alone right.
I'd say at least don't do it till this current craze blows over.
But Alicia, Raven, Rob and others I may be a parent but I agree on many levels. Being honest about something is never a bad thing.
Not all of us did the foofoo jibbberish you speak of: my wife claimed it helped the daughter's verbal skills. I wouldn't know, it just never made sense to me, so I just talked to her like another person.

## Post 11 by Thunderstorm (HotIndian!) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 4:11:25

This is a similar discussion like athiest and religion.
If we are doing something, we do expect for a get back from it. that is the nature. If we're spending money, we do expect for a worthy thing or an edible for that spending amount. Likewise, if we're involving in a relationship, there must be some gain. I personally feel kids are the fulfiller of a good family.
I do agree there are many disadvantages and difficulties in growing up them and taking care of them and so on. even though, there are several difficulties with it, it's an awesome feeling you will be getting while your child is calling you dad or mom. Also their naughtiness, repeating the words whatever we say, etc etc. I can keep on telling many many awesome things about kids.
If a person is not medically fit for having a kid, that's different. Also if someone is not financially wealthy and taking a decision not to have kids, that's different too. but I still say a family without a kid is a tree without flowers or fruits.
Raaj

## Post 12 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 9:55:18

That might be true for some people, but not for others. All trees are not meant to bare fruit, and I'm one of them.
There are many ways to help people; having a kid is not the only way or option.
With kids, you invest a lot and get no return. They bring so much unnecessary drama and emotional unrest into one's life, and I don't need that. I don't think anyone should have kids, or make any life-changing decision, just because the pressures on from family and friends. We have the freedom to, so we should decide what we want for ourselves.
Society thinks we're all so selfish for choosing not to have kids. But if you look at why a lot of people have kids, those reasons are pretty selfish -- to have someone care for them in their old age, so their kid can participate in something they couldn't when they were a kid, or to prove they're a real man or a true woman. And when you say you're never having kids, people respond as if you said you're a member of al Chaeda.

## Post 13 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 9:56:50

while I couldn't ever imagine sharing such an outlook as most display on this topic, I highly respect you all for being honest with yourselves and others about not wanting kids.
I completely agree with Leo's stance about not believing in "baby talk". it's nice to see others feel as I do; I thought I was silly for feeling that way.

## Post 14 by Dirty Little Oar (I'd rather be rowing.) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 12:08:03

Right on, Inquisitive! Count me in the no kids camp. I've just never been interested. Agree with the belief that kids are noisy, messy, expensive and just plain annoying. I get all the interaction I want with kids belonging to friends and family. It's always a relief to see the messy little critters going home with their parents. I have no desire to deal with all the problems and responsibilities of having kids. I know, to those of you with kids, all the hassles are worth it and you have a bond with your offspring that I will never experience. Good for you. I'm glad it works for you, but I know kids aren't for me. I have always liked coming up with names for kids, but at the same time, I've also been conscious that I didn't want any. Everyone told me I'd change my mind, but I haven't. I'm 37, no kids and no regrets. Glad to find I'm not alone in my beliefs. Sometimes I feel like I'm a freak for thinking this way. It's nice to find out I'm not alone here. Call me selfish. It's fine. I am selfish. I don't want to make my life fit around the needs of a kid. But, I'm smart enough to know I'd be a crappy parent so I'm just not doing that to a kid.

## Post 15 by Thunderstorm (HotIndian!) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 12:21:08

ok. to say that in simple, each their own. as per me, people who they are not wanting kids for their freedom, or for their non-responsibility, or, as a few zoners said, kids are anoying, I really say they dono the joy of a kid. and I dono how to explain that feeling, pleasure, happiness of having a kid in words.
Raaj.

## Post 16 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 13:57:47

You only get those feelings if you want the kid. While some women who never wanted kids get pregnant and end up keeping and loving their child, there are women who have children and openly blame them for every shred of unhappiness they experience. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
My idea is that if you already don't like or enjoy children when you're not a parent, it's best not to become a parent.

## Post 17 by jessmonsilva (Taking over the boards, one topic at a time.) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 19:35:02

I have to agree with inquisitive. While I do have a kid, when I first had him I did not want him and never thought about having kids. I love Michael now that I have him and would never ever want anything happening to him, but believe me having kids was never part of my future. When I found out I was pregnant I wanted to abort the child but as soon as I heard the heartbeat I knew I could no longer even dream of killing that child and I have always been a little leary of putting babies in adoption scenarios. I've seen a lot of kids go into foster homes and they go through really hard times.

## Post 18 by Agent r08 (Jesus Christ on a chocolate cross) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 20:59:13

Raaj my friend I have helped raise four kids, and not one second of that was a joy. I really hate when people tell me "you don't know what you're missing". Well actually yes I do and it is the main number one reason I do not ever want kids.
Not everyone finds kids to be little bundles of joy. Some people really don't have the tolerance for them, I sure as fuck don't.

## Post 19 by TechnologyUser2012 (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 22:21:35

I don't have any tolerance for them either! I will never ever have kids!

## Post 20 by Blondie McConfusion (Blah Blah Blah) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2011 22:43:09

I'm a parent and do not at all think y'all are selfish for not wanting to have kids. I see it the other way. Y'all are responsible enough to know that you don't want kids and are unselfish enough to not bring them into the world. Being a parent isn't for everyone, just like sports, tv, rap music, and broccoli aren't for everyone. I know these aren't huge decisions like parenthood, but my point is that the choice whether or not to have kids should be up to the individual and is part of what makes us, us.
My only comment is that I'm not lying when I say that being a parent is wonderful and absolutely delightful. It's not perfect all the time, but all I ever wanted was to be a mom. It truly is the greatest thing in my life. I can see how not all feel this way, and totally respect it, but just because parenting isn't for all, it is and will continue to be amazing for me.
To the original poster and anyone else who feels the same, I'm glad that you are proud of not being a parent or wanting to be. It's an important decision and you should be confident and proud of your decisions! And I'm a parent who doesn't feel sorry for you at all. How could I feel sorry for someone who has made a decision in their life that makes them happy. :)
Great topic. :)

## Post 21 by Agent r08 (Jesus Christ on a chocolate cross) on Friday, 29-Jul-2011 1:47:00

@Blondie I Completely agree with everything you've said and may I add, I have seen and heard of people having children who did not want them and being completely miserable in their lives and in some cases passing that miserableness to their children in some form of abuse.
Ultimately the way I see it is like this. My sperm, my body, my choice.

## Post 22 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2011 10:44:56

Brandi, Jess, and Pipi, I respect you guys. I was prepared to have a ton of parents jump down our throats at this thread. Those who have called me selfish for my feelings are most often parents. As I said earlier, I don't think people are foolish for having children. Yes, it is true that many people have them who should not. Unfortunately, like anything else, it's the idiots, in this case, crappy parents, who get the most attention and press, and the good ones who go about the business of parenting in relative obscurity, and are unsung, so to speak. There are many good parents in the world, and I respect the hell out of them. They're doing something that I could not do, that I don't wish to. Raising children is probably the hardest work there is, and for those who are capable of doing that work, and doing it well, my hat is off to them in a huge way. So, thanks to you guys for understanding where we're coming from, and good luck to you in raising your own children. Smile.

## Post 23 by SunshineAndRain (I'm happily married, a mom of two and a fulltime college student.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2011 16:34:26

Yep & just as you respect us for being good parents, I respect you for making a decision that is not a popular one & sticking by your convictions. I love my kids & I do get joy out of being a mom, but it is grueling, stressful stuff & it's not for everyone. Just like being a doctor or lawyer or hair stylist or singer isn't for everyone. Parenthood is a calling, a careerin itself;the biggest, hardest most rewarding career there is.

## Post 24 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Friday, 29-Jul-2011 17:51:24

Another thing to think about, and most parents on here aren't at this stage yet, but parenting is all about being left.
You don't create something to follow you, do as you say, etc. A child is another human being, and will, or at least should, want to leave you. Those feelings, intentions and actions come a very long time before they actually move out, and your greatest critic is the child. As he or she grows, the criticism comes in so many ways on so many levels and for a myriad of reasons.
I am now convinced it is not something someone does successfully, at least not in the manner of success we measure elsewhere.
Again, I highly respect anyone who has thought all of this through. You are thinking a lot more about it than I ever did, or many of us have who became parents. Probably, we evolved to not think about it before procreating, or many of us, in particular women, would never choose it. And the species would not have ever survived. That is of course no longer true or necessary.

## Post 25 by SunshineAndRain (I'm happily married, a mom of two and a fulltime college student.) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2011 0:42:42

Very good point, Leo. Some people do great with the kid until they move out. Some people are great raising their children, then when they leave, it is so devastating & they have such a hard time dealing with it, that they distance themselves from their children. Sad, but true.

## Post 26 by LittleSneezer (The Zone-BBS is my prison, but I like it here.) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2011 12:20:19

Like many others on here, I respect those who are or want to be parents, but I definitely don't have what it takes to raise a child and am frustrated that older friends and family members think I will change my mind one day.

## Post 27 by sugarbaby (The voice of reason) on Monday, 01-Aug-2011 4:14:26

there is never a right or wrong answer to this.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that you don't want to be a parent, any more than there is say, admitting that you don't want to have *any more* children, for instance. Because ultimately whatever you decide there will be someone waiting to judge you for it. Have no children and people will tell you you should have them. Have one child and people will tell you that to not have any more is selfish and you are depriving him/her of a sibling. Have three or more and people start to go the other way and tell you you have too many.
So we all have to make the decisions that work for us as individuals, just as long as we're up-front about them from the outset, i.e. that future partners know your intentions, because the decision to, or not to have children is one that can cause immense friction within a relationship.

## Post 28 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2011 5:09:33

Agreed, Claire. In the relationships I've been in, I've been very up front with the fact that my tubes are tied, so no biological children here. More than that, that I don't want them, that I don't plan to adopt, either. I feel it is only right and fair to be up front about it, because if you're not, and only find out later your partner wants kids, both of you are in for a major heartache. This is one issue that I will not compromise on, no matter how much a partner wanted them. So if he really did, then, even if we care about each other, we'd not be right for each other.

## Post 29 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2011 11:09:32

I'm totally with you, Alicia, when it comes to relationships and having kids.
I'm upfront about it as well. As soon as someone says they want kids, they're out! That's a deal-breaker, no matter what. I can make compromises in life, but that's one thing I'm not willing to work with.

## Post 30 by sugarbaby (The voice of reason) on Monday, 01-Aug-2011 11:37:27

as I said above I think that choosing not to have children is fine, but I do think some of the responses on this thread are quite agressive in terms of how people are reacting to the very idea of children. from expressing just how much other peoples' children irritate you (worth bearing in mind that reactions to one's own children is totally different to other people, and that most parents are irritated by children that are not their own either), to comments about how the instant someone wants kids they're out.
I think it's entirely possible to choose to, or not to, have children and be comfortable with that decision without needing to defend it quite so agressively.

## Post 31 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2011 16:51:51

Keep in mind, Claire, I'm not going to be so aggressive as to tell a man that if he wants kids, he's out. I'd be far gentler than that, but it would still be the truth of the matter. I would not want him to spend a relationship wanting something that I am unwilling to give. That is unfair to both parties.
I think we react the way we do for a few reasons. Many of us have nieces and nephews, or friends with children, and we watch how utterly being a parent takes over one's life. I for one, absolutely do not want that. We see how children behave in public, and don't want to have to deal with that type of melt-down. Even the best parent has to, now and then. No thanks. And, as for myself, I don't even want to know how I'd handle it. I'm too high on temper, too low on patience, and actually fear how I might handle a misbehaving child. Justified or not, I take the misbehavior, and the responsibility they require, out on the child: thus my strong dislike of children. I'm with Inquisitive in her aggressiveness on that. I grant you Claire, it may not be right or fair, but it is how we feel, and it's perfect proof of why we're not going to be parents. Smile.

## Post 32 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2011 17:32:48

Claire, another reason why I'm so aggressive, and the others may be as well, is that we're tired of people telling us we'll change our minds, we're too young to know what we want, we're selfish for not wanting kids, if we fall in love with the right person, we'll want to have their kids, and so on. People who tell others they have or want to have children do not receive such reactions. Most people think that having children isn't an option, you just do it because that's what expected. Wrong! People don't stop to think that having children is not for everyone, and some people don't realize that for themselves until it's too late.

## Post 33 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Monday, 01-Aug-2011 18:19:48

The two of you are right: especially when your children are small, you have no hobbies, no outside interests, etc., unless you are first well enough off to have care during that time, and equally well enough off that your time at work in and of itself is not jeopardizing time you would otherwise spend with your child.
Then, as teenagers, you have the endless list of camps, preparations for schools, etc., all of which cost money. I see younger people on these boards talking about what is and isn't provided for them. Like it or not, human offspring require an astounding amount of money, resources, time, and energy for two decades of your life, and that is two decades if you only have one child. Knowing you do not want to invest this time, and relinquishing it, is fair judgment.
Also, knowing that if you did invest that time, and during the time you needed the most support, you would have many shallow single types looking down on you for "spending all your time with your kids," "I would never date him / her because they spend all their time with their kids," while said shallow types are, ... you guessed it, complaining that their parents didn't give them enough quality time.
I would willing do anything for my daughter, but that does not change the truth of what it does mean to be a parent.
It has only been recent years when I have begun to again start pursuing my own interests again, at least on a serious basis. Since western humans typically live into their 90s, and I reproduced relatively early (23 years old), and I only reproduced once, I could be called more fortunate than most.
If I had the four kids of many Floridians, or even the two kids of many up here in the Pacific Northwest, I would never have even considered joining the Coast Guard anddoing other things I am now involved in, not until they were near around my daughter's current age, e.g. mid teens / past the stormy junior high years. And even now, as a parent, I am careful how and what I spend on these types of things, since the majority of costs understandably need to go towards her.
Before one reacts, perhaps a cursory glance at some of the other topics on here, where teens complain about how much time, money, resources, and independence they may or may not get.
As a parent, if you give your child independence, that requires an amazing amount from you. It's not as simple as just letting them go off someplace: you must, as the responsible party be ready and available for when things go wrong. Anyone who thinks this through before parenting, whether they choose to or not to, is doing what humans do better than any other species: manipulating their own environment to their advantage, and the advantage of the species as a whole.
After all, we aren't underpopulated, and cases where burned-out-and-exhausted mothers throwing offspring into garbage cans, chloroforming them, etc., is pretty frequent even if it isn't at all new. At one time, the Thames river was full of drowned babies and toddlers, hence the invention of the birth certificate in England to start tracking and accounting for children.
So, thinking it through, you're a potential benefit to a child who otherwise would have been.

## Post 34 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Thursday, 04-Aug-2011 15:44:33

right on inquisitive!!!! I have raised two kids and loved being a parent. In my opinion there are too many people in the world who have kids because "my friend is having one" or "it's the thing to do." If parents to be were truly aware of the hassles of their new more than full time career, I wonder how many would have the fortitude to go through with the plan.
my mom admitted to me as an adult that she didn't want to be a parent. however in the 50s that was what one did. she couldn't wait to get us out of the house and in to a school room so she could go back to work.
childless by choice is a valid lifestyle decision. good for you for being self aware enough to make it.

## Post 35 by Thunderstorm (HotIndian!) on Friday, 05-Aug-2011 6:17:34

Child free paretns. what are all the reasons they are telling to be child free? few of them are saying that they don't have patiency to take care of their kids, few of them are telling it's an anoying head ache. few of them are telling it's a money sucking thing. few others say it'd be hard to grow up a child due to their disability. I personally feel most these reasons are all justifications. I know few blind people are baby sitting for money. we all aware blind couples are growing up kids pritty well.
I felt girls those who are not interested in having kids probably for these reasons.
1. few girls are thinking their beauty will go off after delivery.
2. few girls' opinion men reject them if they are with kids.
3. few are not wanting any commitment in life.
4. Financially not wealthy enough to have kids.
5. I'm not healthy enough to have a kid.
In the above, 4 and 5 are acceptable. but the rest?
Raaj.

## Post 36 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Friday, 05-Aug-2011 15:30:09

How about this? I simply don't have a reason to have kids. Many above posters have listed valid reasons not to want them. Another is that I need a reason for any great change in my life, and having kids would be akin to grabbing a tactile US map, pointing to a random state, dropping school, and moving there without any reason other than that being the state where my finger landed. Those people who think I'll change my mind, in effect are saying this is the level of chaos I should subject myself to simply because it's what people do. The reason for children, I imagine, must come from within oneself.

## Post 37 by Agent r08 (Jesus Christ on a chocolate cross) on Friday, 05-Aug-2011 20:40:14

Raaj what ever their reasons you're forgetting it's their bodies, their choice.
I know I for one have already raised kids (my sisters) and I hated it. As I tell many people; my penis, my sperm, my choice.

## Post 38 by hopeburnsblue (http://hopeburnsblue.deviantart.com) on Saturday, 06-Aug-2011 2:41:16

Oh my goodness! I thought I was the only one lol. I won't go into too much detail, but it would basically entail passing things along besides my blindness that I just don't think I could contend with due to certain experiences in my childhood. Plus, I don't connect well with the children of today. They're hard to read and keep track of. I get tired of people who just have kids for selfish reasons or none at all and parents who are noncommittal. Yes, souls cry to be born, but the child is your responsibility, and blah, blah, blah. I just feel like many children of baby boomers have displayed this noncommittal parenting style. They think we have a sense of entitlement? Please. So basically, if I don't want something with all my being, especially a child, I'm not gonna go there, not only for my well-being but for that of the child's. That's another life. I do mother people a lot, though. I practically raised my sister in some ways, take care of my friends, mentor other teens and young adults with disabilities, work with kids with special needs, and so forth. I've been both belittled and scorned for my decision, but I know I've made the right one. I will get my kid fix by doing social work...end of story.

## Post 39 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 06-Aug-2011 9:09:37

You bring up a good point. If you like children, but don't want your own, there are other ways. Work with them, volunteer with them, etc. A girl I know who is an elementary school teacher, but does not want children of her own jokes that she rents kids from 9:00 till 3:00. She loves her job and her students, but wants to have her own time when she's off work. I don't blame her, and think she's made a good choice for herself.

## Post 40 by OceanDream (An Ocean of Thoughts) on Saturday, 06-Aug-2011 11:28:05

I, for one, certainly don't want any unwanted children being brought into this world. so if you don't want to have kids, good on you for sticking to your guns and not having them. Whatever your reasons, whether others agree or not, at least you're true to yourself. I know from personal experience that being around unhappy parents, even temporarily, is not a pleasant experience for anyone involved. At least these people aren't saying something like, well, I don't like kids, but I'm going to have them anyway. To me, that's worse than not having kids at all. Not only would this make the parents miserable, but the kids would be too. Now, to all you people who consider children to be a bundle of joy, (most of the time at least), myself included, who can honestly say that not having kids is a selfish decision?

## Post 41 by guitargod1 (I'm going for the prolific poster awards!) on Saturday, 06-Aug-2011 22:56:44

I am not interested in having kids. I love kids, I just don't want one of my own. It has been an issue in most long term relationships I've been in though, which is a shame. If the girl wants children, then it just won't work. and on a related note, I really wish more people would adopt, and I wish they would reform the adoption process/requirements. Some people I've known that genuinly want a child and have a stable home etc have been denied, meanwhile, some people that are granted the right to adopt, you look at them and wonder how the hell that happened. There are many children that are already alive that urgently need love, care, shelter, food, medicine, etc and many willing to provide those things are passed over by adoption agencies and the like.

## Post 42 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Sunday, 07-Aug-2011 16:40:12

Raaj, it shouldn't matter what reason someone gives for not having children, if they don't want them they have the right not to have them. Having kids is a big life change. Raising a child is not easy, and when one or more is brought into your life, a lot of sacrifices are made. You have to start scheduling things like free time, time alone with your partner, and time to spend with friends.
I wanted to post this response to a blog about having children , I think it's comical and serious at the same time.
WORKLOAD – tremendous. Mainly by THE MOTHER. Partner won’t be around, or even if he is, won’t do enough. On housework alone, it’s estimated women do 70%. Changing diapers, getting up to feed, bathing, wiping, cooking, nursing, lullabying, reading, cutlunching, hoovering, cleaning the toilet etc. etc. – no matter how well intended hubby/partner might be, or says he is, it’s always going to be the MOTHER’S burden. HER responsibility.
FINANCIAL – estimates go as high as over 300 thousand dollars to raise a child to 18 yrs of age. (I know what I could do with that!)
HEALTH – for the mother: there is the risk of death (yes, even now, some women still DIE giving birth) or other ‘complications’ during childbirth, I won’t gross you out here, but do your research on ‘what can go wrong?’ Then there are the lifelong effects on the mother of any of those complications. Then there is the very real prospect of Post Natal Depression; which affects a vast percentage of new mothers. Who then feel guilty that they feel that way and thus seek no help and spiral down into a grief that can sometimes last for years.
For the child: what if you drank alcohol while you were pregnant, or coffee, of had a joint, or lived near high power electrical lines, or near a chemical factory, or near a freeway – in short, all the pollution that you were subjected to during your own life, and during your pregnancy WILL affect the health of your new born. And then if there are problems, these could be minor or major. Temporary or lifelong. And what if there is a genetic strain in your family’s DNA, that results in a problem of some kind. Between pollution and genetics what if your child is born with a mutation, abnormality, defect? Are you prepared for that? And, in that unfortunate instance, are you prepared to give your life over TOTALLY as a ‘CARER’? With little or no government/community support? Can you imagine what kind of DAILY hell that would be?
Once again, it’s down to you. It’s your responsibility for bringing this being into the world.
WORK – time off work. How long? Can you afford it financially? Can you afford it intellectually? Can you afford it socially? Most people are validated by what they do, by their work. Are you prepared to give that up for the short/long term? Will you be employable in 1, 2 or 5 years time after having ‘raised’ your child?
SEX – you love it now, but wait till you’ve been up for 22 hours nursing a sick child. You won’t have the energy, the time, the inclination. Or if you do, he won’t. Men can easily be put off sex, and things like baby poo smell on you, or seeing you on your hands and knees wiping up the latest mess etc. etc. can make Mr Happy, Mister not interested tonight. Then, when you do manage to get around to do it, in comes a crying child, saying that they want to sleep with you tonight. Or you hear a sound half way through, and your concentration immediately goes to the child in the next room. Or you’re afraid of waking them up. Or…fill in the blanks.
SOCIALIZING – get used to baby talk for a few years. Get used to not talking about adult things for a few years. Get used to not being able to go out to a movie tonight on the spur of the moment. Or going away for the weekend. Or even if you find the time, having the ENERGY to do those things is another thing altogether. Or what about catching up with friends? Who may not have the time, the energy, etc. because they are PARENTS too. And your single friends? What single friends, they’ve all DISAPPEARED.
SLEEP – one word, deprivation. And all its consequences. Just don’t operate any heavy machinery for the first two years. Like a car. Oh, and maybe defer any emotionally charged arguments with your partner as well. Things said cannot be taken back, and if you’re tired, we know how things can sometimes come out wrong. And something as major as this, is no doubt one of the reasons why 50% of all divorces happen within 5 years of a child being brought into the, loving, ‘family unit’.
FEAR – ‘you don’t know what fear is until you become a parent.’ Heard that before? Fear of anything, EVERYTHING going wrong.
Fancy living on a knife-edge every time the little one’s temperature goes above 99 degrees? Is home late from school? Starts choking on a sausage? Runs across the road without looking? Goes to a party with ‘friends’? EVERYTHING will set you off and you’ll end up in a sweat driven panic. (This apparently lasts for the child’s entire life.)
BABYSITTER – how easy is it going to be? Do you have that village? If not, do you really want some stupid 16-year-old cheerleader and the boyfriend she sneaks over, to watch over your child while you are out on your official ‘date night’. (- you know, the night that is supposed to get you and your partner both interested in each others bodies/minds again)
BODY IMAGE – whoa! A whole new world awaits you, the MOTHER. (‘Daddy’ surprisingly will have no ill effects from the pushing out and breast-feeding of mini-me)
Welcome to sagging breasts (take photos now so you can say how great they USED to look), expanded pelvis/hip/bottom area, erratic skin texture, hair LIMP and dead, bone density has left the building etc. etc. Not to mention that now wayyy stretched bit your partner likes (or used to like?) best. Your body will NEVER be the same again. On every level, right down to the cellular, your body will change, HAS to change, to accommodate, feed (inside), push out, feed (outside) the new unit.
But, maybe you can be like Madonna or any of those other celebs and get yourself a couple of nannies to help you out yeah? (- and maybe a surrogate to do the actual push out too?)
TEENAGE YEARS – are you a masochist?
WORLD – with global warming an ever darkening reality and its devastating effects just beginning, and social, financial, chaos looming at every turn, do you really want to bring someone new to that party?
http://b.rox.com/2006/05/08/ultimate-arguments-for-and-against-having-kids/

## Post 43 by OceanDream (An Ocean of Thoughts) on Sunday, 07-Aug-2011 17:01:23

these are all very good points, I must admit.

## Post 44 by SunshineAndRain (I'm happily married, a mom of two and a fulltime college student.) on Monday, 08-Aug-2011 18:30:08

Lol. I enjoy reading this topic. It's fun to see new perspectives on things. I especially liked what somebody on here said about simply not having a valid reason to have kids that made their decision to not have them. Good point! You're exactly right, it is kind of like pointing at a map & saying, "I'm dropping most everything I know in life & I'm jumping out in to unknown territory." For me, my reason for having kids was mostly selfish (I'll admit), but I think most peoples' reasons for any decision can be classified as selfish because you can find other ways to fulfill that same reason 1& make it selfless without making a drastic decision like having kids. I have always wanted to be a mom; I love working & playing with kids & I enjoy watching them make new discovieries about life & the world around them, but I totally see why people choose not to have them & I love seeing others' perspectives on things like this. Happy posting! *smiles*

## Post 45 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 08-Aug-2011 19:14:36

Brandi, given the reasons you just listed, I don't think your decision was selfish. Many people genuinely do want to be parents because they love children, and want their own. It doesn't mean that they don't endure the hardships of raising them, or get frustrated, but I think it does mean that those hardships are worth it to them. The same seems to be true of you. So, as I say, in my humble opinion, there was nothing selfish in your above post.

## Post 46 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 12-Aug-2011 15:40:23

I probably won't have children simply because I realize I might not be patient enough for that. And if that means none of my parents three kids does have kids then so be it. I already know my parents wouldn't be too devastated if they never become grandparents.

## Post 47 by SunshineAndRain (I'm happily married, a mom of two and a fulltime college student.) on Friday, 12-Aug-2011 16:37:13

Thanks Alicia. That actually meansa lot to me that you feel my decisions weren't selfish; many people do see me having kids as selfish. I lived around a lot of backwardsightees whohad a problemwith me having kids. So, you just can't win.Either they can'tstandthat you have them or they wish you'd have them if you don't. That's why it's good to just do what feels right for you.

## Post 48 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Friday, 12-Aug-2011 20:58:28

I don't want to have kids either. My main reason for that is that I know I wouldn't be a good parent. I have enough issues of my own, and once you have children, your needs and feelings get put on the back burner. They just might incinerate before you ever get a chance to understand them again, and by then it's too late. It's really no wonder so many parents get burnt out and do stupid things. They spend so much energy on keeping their kids happy that they forget that they too have a right to their emotions. If they're angry at their children, they feel guilty. Or, they go to the other extreme and justify abusing their children by the anger that's been festering inside them for years, the anger that they can't even identify its roots anymore because it's been buried and cast aside for so long.
Another reason I don't want to have kids is because I would hate to think what I would do to someone who made fun of my child. I'd probably beat the shit out of them. I didn't do that to the kids who made fun of me when I was growing up, and I wish I had. So acting out my fantasies in the next generation wouldn't be good either, especially since I'd then go to jail for assault.
Finally, I've never had a way with kids either. I'm really glad that I'm not the only one who feels awkward with baby talk. By the same token, I don't know how to act around kids because usually people question me as to why I'm not talking to them like that. I'm also very introverted and laid-back, and usually parents of young children have to be constantly energetic and endlessly creative. That's not me, and I know this.
So, call these reasons selfish if you want, and I'm young, I'll be turning 22 in a month, but I've known for quite awhile that I don't want kids.

## Post 49 by Meglet (I just keep on posting!) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 6:18:33

I'm not sure I agree with all of the views expressed here, but I do agree with the idea that being childless by choice is not a sin. When I expressed my own distaste at the idea of having kids of my own, my family was shocked, horrified, appalled, incredulous, etc. Of course, they keep insisting that I'll change my mind, and perhaps I will. I'm not quite seventeen, so I have plenty of time to think about it. My issue is with the fact that society considers it "normal" to grow up, get married, and have a couple of kids. What would be so wrong with simply choosing not to have kids? I want to get married. I want to find that one man I love with all my heart and be with him for the rest of my life, but why does that image *need* to include children? I think that parenting might be for most people, but it certainly isn't for everyone.

## Post 50 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 9:10:00

F&R, those are not selfish reasons. like others here, you are simply self-aware enough to realize you would not make a good parent. Meglet, I can understand why you may not agree with all the views expressed here. I'm sure many don't. I too want to get married one day, but I want my life to be just me and my man. like you said, you've got a long time to make up your own mind. Smile.

## Post 51 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 10:29:12

Try telling some people that you do not wish to be married OR have kids and watch their reactions turn from anger to those of pity and shock... "Oh, you poor young thing! You just don't know what you're saying. There's someone for everyone, and without him you'll get lonely."

## Post 52 by Meglet (I just keep on posting!) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 16:36:23

There's that, as well. Just because the majority of people grow up and find a husband/wife, it doesn't mean everyone absolutely must. Choosing not to be married is no more unacceptable than choosing not to have children. It's a choice, and it should be a choice freely made.
Of course, I understand the wish to live with one's husband/wife in the absence of children. What's so wrong with wanting to have your partner all to yourself and enjoying your relationship without the distraction caused by children? Sometimes children can enhance a relationship, but not always.
-Meglet

## Post 53 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 16:41:36

Even though I personally want to marry one day, I recognize it's not for everyone, either, just as kids aren't for everyone. I admire someone who is self-aware enough to know they don't want marriage just as I am of someone self-aware enough to know they don't want kids. no point in getting married if it's only going to make you unhappy and either end up with a lousy marriage, or divorced.

## Post 54 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 21:41:59

I have a lot written here so will break it up to make things easier. I actually wrote my own essay on this here.
Thoughts on being Child Free
http://www.zonebbs.com/boards.php?t=23283
Feel free to read it and to comment here or there. I discuss many of the same issues there but the comment thread is very different from here and touches on blind parenting among other things. Anyway, while I may someday choose to adopt, I definitely know that I don't want to have my own children, not only for the sake of not going through pregnancy but also because there's that whole early stage wen you have to wake up in the middle of the night, practically all the time, when they're so completely dependent on you that it's almost scarey, when most things to them are visual (I've been totally blind since I was two-months-old) and when they can't communicate with you in a meaningful way. I would also want my child to have full Hellenic blood and citizenship. I was also adopted and think that if I ever did want to be a mom, this would be the best way, since I could then extend the gift to someone else. But if I were to adopt, I would want a child who could at least speak or who is close to that age. In any case, here's what I don't understand. If, at some point, I did want a child, what the hell is wrong with adoption. Why does it physically have to be my and my husband's child, with our blood? Technically, Mom is my aunt. But even if she wasn't, would it make a difference to me? No. she's still the one who raised me, who sacrificed everything for me and the one to whom I ran when I was scared, lonely or sad. She's Mom!
To Inquisitive Intensity: Although I don't have the same kind of repulsion that you do when thinking of babies. Still, the constant crying in restaurants does get on my nerves and the idea of poop all over is quite gross. I definitely thought of the sleep interruptions and them getting into everything, but never about having to get them to toilet train. Perhaps, with a girl, it would be easier. But ideally, I would like a boy. So let's say I had one. I would need to help him learn to aim etc. if, for whatever reason, his father wasn't around (unlikely). I would also need to teach him how to clean himself, which can absolutely be done but which takes patience. I am a very devout intactivist and would completely refuse to have my son circumcised, unless there was a medical emergency. Eating might be a problem as well, since I could see what he was doing. I also didn't think of the cost as the child grows older. As for cosmetics, I wouldn't permit them under 16-years-old, and by then, my child would be old enough to work. Thank The gods that college is free in greece, but who knows if that will last if anything like the current situation continues?
As for being an aunt, I love it and wish I could spend more time with my nieces and nephews. But I can't say that being a parent has absolutely no rewards. I'm sure there are truly wonderful things about it, which is why there's still that tiny chance that I might adopt. Once the child is no longer an infant, the learning, growing and accomplishing start. From his first day of school, to his first day of work, to his first day in the military and beyond, each accomplishment would bring me joy. Even just watching him learn things and apply what he learned, seeing a bit of my values and morals in him would make me happy. So it's not all bad. I think it's important to weigh the pros and cons. I would love to have a home with a husband, a dog and some plants, and I certainly agree that now is the time for me to start living. But there may come a time when I wish to take an unwanted child and give him a home. Who knows? that said, I'm 100% sure that I would never do it unless I was married, as I refuse to be a blind and single parent. Beautiful point about feeling sorry for children with bad parents! If you know that you can't handle it or if you don't want children, then don't have them!

## Post 55 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 21:50:50

I'm 27-years-old, and although my blindness isn't genetic and I don't have other diseases, I was able to convince my doctor that sterrilisation is the best option for me. I now just have to decide whether I want tubal ligation or Essure. I will be writing a separate topic on this, but if anyone here sees my request and wishes to either comment there or in my inbox, I would sincerely appreciate it. To SisterDawn, in post 6: I agree with the doctor. While he should have discussed it with you, his ideas did make sense. Why bring a child into the world if you know, before becoming pregnant, that he/she will be blind or have cancer? I would also abort in that case, particularly if the cancer was assured via medical testing.
To LeoGuardian: There are places which won't give men vacectamies without a woman's concent? I don't even know where to begin with that, but the word "sexist!" strongly came to mind. So basically, a woman can have it done and it doesn't matter if the husband sues but not the man? And what if he's single! Mom said that she never used baby talk on me either.
To Raaj: I couldn't agree with you more on finances. This is yet another mistake that I keep seeing parents make and another reason why I would never have or adopt (especially the latter, as that costs thousands) a child right now. It's simply not financially feasible. To me, if one parent can't stay home until the child is at least old enough to go to school, and if the parents have to work so much that they never get to really spend quality time with their children, they shouldn't have them. The same goes for women who want both a career (not job but major career) and a child. If their partner can't stay home then they should make the choice either go for the big money or go for the baby.

## Post 56 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 21:57:41

To Inquisitive Intensity: More good points here. You're right about there being many ways to help people. Volunteering is one of them, even if it's with children. If, for instance, you volunteer to read to them, most will be on their best behaviour. So now you've interacted with them and can go home. If not, there's always giving blood or helping the needy, perhaps at a nursing home, where you're less likely to see children. I also agree that not having children should never be considered selfish. In fact, it's selfless, particularly if you know that you simply can't handle it and the child wouldn't be given the love, attention or even just the patience that he/she would deserve. And why would I want one? I would want one so that he could join the military (mandatory for men), so that he would be seen as a true Greek in both blood and citizenship, so that I could feel that I raised a good son for my country, maybe even one who would follow my faith and so continue the love of The gods. But really, what kinds of reasons are those? They're good but there should also be the desire to nurture, to love, to sacrifice for that child, to want to share a part of yourself, be it through blood or just through time and energy. While I do want to teach, to shape and to mould and while I could love, I don't have the other desires. Also, I would want him to play sports and to do other things that I didn't do growing up and that wouldn't be fair to him if he didn't like them.
I love children but not at the crying and whining stage. I also know that I'd make a great mother. I just don't have the patience for it and really want to start my own life. Plus, I'm not with someone who wants children. he already has two grown ones and if I wanted one, I would need to leave him, find someone with whom I could see myself spending the rest of my life, start a relationship with him, marry him and then see. All of that takes time and I love my boyfriend and certainly don't want to leave him just for the experience of raising a child.
To LeoGuardian: You're absolutely right about being left. While I can imagine it as being glad for my child and hoping that I taught him enough to serve him well, I never even thought about all of the criticisms, the fighting, the questioning if you did things right or wrong or how you could've been better etc. For all I know, my son could wind up demanding American citizenship, hating the military and even changing religions or becoming an atheist! I would have no control over that. This is why, I think, it might be better for me to get a dog at some point. as was also pointed out, there's also the empty nest syndrome. Okay, so he went to college or a trade school and/or stayed in the military and became a big officer and now is gone. Now what do I do with my life at 50 something? That's got to hurt.

## Post 57 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 13-Aug-2011 22:07:12

To those who brought up relationships, you're absolutely right. It's always best to be honest and you should never compromise if you're that sure of something. Doing so will only hurt you in the end. To SisterDawn: I also have a temper, particularly if I didn't sleep. One of the most important things in the world to me is protecting and defending children against those who would harm them and my absolute fear in this situation is that one night, because I didn't sleep for a few nights, I would harm the child in some way. This is another reason why I don't want to have my own or to adopt an infant.
To Dinesh: Let me quickly go over your ideas.
1. I'm not into vanity, and while I don't want to be ugly, looking beautiful after childbirth would be the last thing on my mind.
2. I never even considered that. Besides, I would be married and not looking for any other men.
3. I would be willing to do anything for my country and am also willing to take on the responsibility of a dog, which could last well over a decade. So I'm not afraid of committment.
4. Okay, I do agree with you there. As I said, I'm not financially able to have a child at this point in my life, even if I wanted one.
5. I'm quite healthy and my family's been known to pop out babies without any problems.
Why are the rest not acceptible? If these women care only for their looks or whether men would be attracted to them or are not willing to commit to a child, why on Earth should they be mothers? They're clearly not ready and may never be, and that's fine. They are aware of their priorities and at least they're not having children just to do so.
To guitargod1: Thank you! I'm so glad that someone brought up the issues of adoption. My only fear is that, if I ever did want to adopt, they would refuse my husband and I because of my blindness. I'm sure he would be sighted, but that still might be an issue, and I'm not sure how the adoption process works in greece if I were there. The other option is to adopt a Greek from here and then go there but that might be even more complicated.
To Inquisitive Intensity: I love post 42! Everyone should read that before deciding on whether to become a parent! Personally, I would abort if I knew that the child was going to have such a severe disability. I believe those born to a life where they will never be able to care for themselves, particularly if they won't be able to understand basic things, should be euthanised. Unfortunately, the laws still haven't caught up to the idea, so the best I could do if I did have a child like that would be to institutionalise it or have it put up for adoption. Sorry, but that's one thing I simply couldn't handle. I never even thought about being employable after raising a child, or maybe even after the first five years of his life, but wow! That's really scary. I hardly socialise (mostly my fault for bad mobility skills and not having local friends). So I cherrish every moment out and about with my boyfriend, friends or family and I'd hate to have to give it up. Yes, I can only imagine the fear. What if my husband's working and my son starts playing with the stove or gets into the medicine cabinet that we forgot to lock, or runs out into the street, all because I couldn't see him? No thanks! I think that sight would also be an issue if I had a girl. I'm simply not into makeup, hair styles, fassion trends and Gods forbid I had to help her with her menstrual cycle for some reason. I don't mean explaining it but if she had an accident and didn't clean it. Then, there's teaching her to shave everything and keep clean, not to mention with possibly dealing with issues of self-consciousness as a teen, which are totally foreign to me. It's much easier to have a son. And, as was said in post 42, there's the world, especially Greece! What on Earth would I be bringing that child into, whether i bore or adopted him?

## Post 58 by Meglet (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 0:11:10

Tiffanitsa: I agree with nearly all of what you've said here, but I'm struggling with the fact that you find the idea of having a blind child so negative. Having a child with cancer is potentially devistating, but the blind can still live full, happy lives unhampered by the kind of suffering that cancer would bring. I personally would be totally okay with having a blind child. I might be a little disappointed for them--life isn't easy as we all know--but I certainly would still have the child.

## Post 59 by bermuda-triangulese (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 0:29:09

thank God someone actually said it! i myself have no intention of having kids. I actually actively despise them. I contrive to never be in a situation where I have to deal with one under any circumstances because I cannot abide them. Give me real company any day, otherwise get out of my life with talk of what your offspring had for breakfast and how you're ever so proud. *vommit*

## Post 60 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 1:37:02

To Meglet: No, having a blind child isn't the same as having one with a truly debilitating illness. but why have one if you know that it will be blind when there are so many other unwanted children out there? To go ahead and have the child is basically condemming it to blindness when you had the choice not to do so. It's selfish, because you're basically saying "I want to have a child with my own blood and screw the consequences". I know that most people would never think that way but it is how it seems to me. If you want a blind child, why not adopt one whom nobody wants? Of course, if the child becomes blind after being born, that's entirely different. Sure, you should keep him/her and take care of him/her. After all, who better to care for a blind child than a blind parent?
To bermuda-triangulese: Goodness gracious! This is why I never joined those child free communities. Okay, I may not want a child but i don't hate them as deamon spawn who need to be irradicated if they so much as look at me. If a parent wants to share what his/her child ate for breakfast or what they did together, so be it. I'm not the most interesting person in the world either.

## Post 61 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 11:17:06

Eleni, this is where you and I strongly disagree, but you know that. I don't view it as, "condemning," my child to blindness. Are you really that unhappy with yourself as a blind person that you feel having a blind child would be condemning it? I think that speaks to yur own personal feelings of yourself and your blindness. not meant as an atack, just my thoughts. I do, however, agree with you on one thing. If you are cool with having a blind child, adopting one can be a way to go. That usually means an international adoption though, as blindness is not a common reason for giving up a child in the US. I've known several couples who have adopted blind children from other countries, and believe me, in doing so, they saved that child from a life of hell in their country of origin.
Hahaha, Bermuda. I had to laugh at the way you wrote it, but I understand what you mean. Once someone becomes a parent, it's all-consuming. This is not meant against any of my friends who are, but when my friends have become parents, their kids take over their Tweets, FB statuses, email messages, and so on. Whether it be what they had for breakfast, how their potty training is going, etc. Some of it is cute, but sometimes I want to ask, "Do you have a life outside your child?" Of course, the answer to that question is no, which brings us back to square one of why I'm not having any. I like to have a life.
I guess it depends on your definition of having a life. For those parents who are fine with their child being their life, more power to them.

## Post 62 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 11:48:18

I don't see how you can't understand this, and I, too, don't mean it in an angry way. I, like you, know what it is to be blind. I know our struggles, our achievements, our limitations in all manner of life. Yes, many can be fought and won and many others cannot. But why would I want to give a child that kind of life? Why would I want to purposefully go and have a child with my disability, knowing how much pain and anguish it causes, from small things like not being able to see the faces of those whom I love, to bigger ones like having difficulty finding work? You're always supposed to want better for your child, not equal or worse. This reminds me of the deaf community who refuse to let their children have hearing aids or implants so that they could be part of the "deaf community". What in the hell is that? If I had a blind child and there was a way for him to see, and I knew that it was relatively safe, he'd be there!

## Post 63 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 14:26:13

If a person does not want to give birth to a child with a disability of any kind, they have the right not to. If a woman chooses to get an abortion for whatever reason, medical, emotional, financial, she should get it done.
Eleni, I think Alicia was saying that just because you don't enjoy being blind doesn't mean others do not. When you say things like "condemning" a child to blindness, it speaks volumes. It says that you don't enjoy being blind; it bothers you greatly. That's okay, but don't assume that everyone else who is blind feels that way.
Also, if there are corrective procedures for any disability, I think it should be up to the child whether they get a procedure done or not. I know that before a certain age, your parents' opinion is rule, but I think it would be extremely inconsiderate to force a medical procedure on someone who does not desire it.
Bermuta, you already know I'm totally with you. I can't stand children. It sucks because I'm now an aunt of six. I'm angry when they visit, and I am almost euphoric when they get the hell out. All their running around, screaming, and attacking each other drives me fucking mad! Somehow, my mother thinks it's cute and amusing. I think it's hell on earth.

## Post 64 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 14:49:23

like Raven and Alicia said in their recent posts, Eleni, I think it's quite unfair for you to make a statement implying that blindness is something horrible. not everyone in the world thinks as you do, and, speaking only for myself, I'm happy being blind and really feel passionately about it being nothing more than a neusance, at times.
sure, not being able to drive sucks...but you live with it, either making the most of what resources you have, or bitching about what you can't change. either way, how you handle it is completely up to you.
also, I certainly don't see choosing to have a blind child as an act of selfishness. if anything, I see it as an opportunity for me to empathize with him or her, because I've been through/go through little and big hurtles regularly.

## Post 65 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 16:00:11

Even if someone is personally fine with being blind, why would they wish it, or any disability for that matter, on a newborn baby? It just doesn't make sense. That said, I can definitely see your point on asking the child. If he or she is old enough, than the child should definitely be consulted. After all, it's his/her body and life. Again, there are already blind children in the world. Why make more?

## Post 66 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 16:51:37

I think you're misunderstanding the point others and I are trying to make. no one "wishes" for their child to be blind. all we're saying is that if he or she is, we'll deal accordingly. and honestly, as has also been said, who better than to raise a blind child than someone/parents who're themselves blind?

## Post 67 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 17:59:50

Thanks Inquisitive, for trying to help me out there. I can't say I exactly enjoy being blind, but I don't hate it. It frustrates me sometimes, but I think any characteristic can be frustrating about oneself. If I hated being blind, I would essentially be hating myself, and that would get me nowhere. So, as I say, while enjoy isn't exactly the right word, I don't mind it, and I don't see it as condemning a child to it.

## Post 68 by TechnologyUser2012 (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 18:21:54

Tiffanitsa, I totally agree with you! One of the many reasons I've chosen to never have children is because I have RP, so there is a 50% chance that any child I have could inherit my blindness. There is no way I would ever knowingly put a child through what I went through while I was growing up. Having to watch them struggle, be different from everyone else at school, be teased or ignored by the other children because of their blindness would just break my heart, knowing that it could have been avoided. I would not choose to put an innocent child who never asked to be born through that. I don't want children anyway, but even if I did want children, I would definitely adopt.

## Post 69 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 18:36:00

I hate blindness. I do not know anyone named Blindness. Therefore, I do not hate myself or anyone else.

## Post 70 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 18:36:57

Thank you so so much! You explained it far more eloquently than I and with better details. It's not about hating yourself. It's about wanting to avoid causing your child unnecessary pain and/or hardship. Again, if your child is born and becomes blind, or if you had no indication that he/she would be blind before birth, that's another story. But while you still have the choice, why choose to put a child through all of that just to say that he/she came from you?

## Post 71 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 18:41:54

Appologies to everyone for the duplicate posts. I kept getting some SQL error and a prompt to go back and try again. Admins feel free to delete all but my last post.

## Post 72 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 14-Aug-2011 18:47:19

no problem, Voyager. While I have temporary Cl status, I took care of the duplicates.

## Post 73 by Siriusly Severus (The ESTJ 1w9 3w4 6w7 The Taskmaste) on Tuesday, 11-Oct-2011 19:35:10

I don't want kids either and definitley not for the same reasons. I really love children, and don't think they are anything but sweet, innocent, and cute, and I've been told I'd be a good mother. I kind of have to like kids as I want to work with them and I am a psych major. but I wouldn't have anytime of my own. I've considered adopting but I want to work full time and wouldn't have any time left to really wach, teach, discipline, and spend valuable time with my kid. and, if I don't work full time I'd never have the money for one, so I don't think I will even though I love and adore kids. And, besides, I don't nearly have enough patience for them. I hate disciplining and that's another thing, it breaks my heart to discipline them, but they must be disciplined. And, I would do a lot of it too and tell them what specifically I want to socialize them extremely well. besides, my discipline style wouldn't be liked today, I am very much old fashioned and believe in old school parenting. I know it works my parents brought me up that way, it was hard, nnot fun, and terrible at times, but hell, it does a lot of good for me and I've been told I am very nice and cultured.

## Post 74 by Inspired Chick (Zone BBS Addict) on Tuesday, 25-Oct-2011 15:23:27

I knew I didn't want kids either and I don't regret that decision.

## Post 75 by Chris N (I just keep on posting!) on Saturday, 29-Oct-2011 16:56:14

I don't have any problems with kids, but I have no desire to have any of my own. I guess this may change--forever is a long time after all--but it hasn't until this point. I think that having a child is possibly the greatest responsibility available to a person, one which I recognize and wish not to undertake. This has been a nonstarter in relationships since so many people either really want kids or buy into the idea that they should as a matter of course.

## Post 76 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 01-Nov-2011 13:39:47

Yeah, all my other reasons aside, Chris, responsibility is part of it. I guess my ideas about parenting has pretty high standards, and truth is, I don't want to have to live up to my own standards. If I did have a child, I'd have to at least try, for their sake.
And it's amazing how many people do have kids because they think they should. It's a mentality I've never understood, and still don't. In my mind, doing almost anything just because you think you should, not because you want to, makes no sense. Particularly when it comes to children. That's one of the worst reasons to have them, and the one who will fair the worst for that line of thinking is the child themselves. Not fair at all.

## Post 77 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 01-Nov-2011 15:25:46

No, but I know people who roboticly do what they think they should in other aspects. I don't feel that that is a healthy mentality.

## Post 78 by SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today (LivingLifeAndLovingItToo) on Friday, 02-Dec-2011 9:25:15

I am so glad that some of you disgusting people will never have children. I have no problem with someone saying that they don't want to have children. That's responsible, if they really do feel that way. If you have cancer or some other really devistating, painful, deadly disease or condition running in your family, then this can be a loving and responsible choice. If you are not in the physical shape to safely carry a pregnancy, grossly overweight or terribly anorexic, or not in the finantial shape to provide for a child, truly broke and barely able to take finantial care of your self, those are good sound reasons. Some people would rather adopt to help children desperatly in need. Others try to do what is best for our planet. I can get behind that too. But, some of you who say that you hate children, find babies gross, want to hurt children if you are around them. You stay the hell away from me and my child. You are seriously psychologically screwed up. And don't kid your self, you can't say you hate kids, hate every aspect of babies and then say you love your younger family members. You don't have to like baby poop or relish crying babies, no one does, but actively hating them and then saying "Oh, but I do love my... fill in relationship of younger children in your family." That's just diluding your self. Some of you have intelligent, reasonable things to say and I appreciate that, but some of you are truly scary individuals that I would avoid like the plague in person. I have a couple of FYI(s) for those who happen across this board. Breastfeeding decreases your chances of getting breast cancer. Not all women get "fat" during pregnancy, their abdomin gets bigger, but their thighs need not get thunderous, their upper arms flabby or their layer of fat under their skin any thicker than it was pre-pregnancy. Not all women are grumpy during pregnancy, the hormones released at that time can make women healthier: with thicker, healthier hair, happier mood, they seem to glow with health and happiness. Just me personally, but my breasts got bigger and stayed bigger and my partner loves that. Also, my womanly parts are just as they were before, no looser, and my partner says there's no difference, and we both enjoy ourselves quite a lot, thanks. Also, raising 4 or 5 children in a responsible, green way can cost less and be less of an impact on the environment than 1 or 2 children raised on formula, with disposable diapers, with new clothes and toys every week, with the latest greatest every freaken thing, etc. It all depends on you, your parenting style and your family. If you don't want to have children, the more power to you. Reproductive choice is hugely important, it's a civil right, to have children if you wish, regardless of disability, sexual orientation, race, etc, and to not have children if you wish, without being pressured or guilted by society. It is just really disturbing to read what some of the more wacko, bent people have posted here. I'd ask you this. what if one of your relatives with the children you say you love, died and their children needed to be placed in your care. Would you lock them in their rooms, kill them in their sleep, put them in foster care? I just don't even want to think about it. Ok, that's quite enough of that.

## Post 79 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Friday, 02-Dec-2011 23:30:30

`I can say I love my younger family members if I like. And I do love them dearly, especially when they're considerate enough not to be in my presence when they easily could intrude. Of course, I most certainly don't like them because they are all whiny bitches or troublemakers, and I believe that there's no stopping that behavior while they're four and under. I say I hate them because I hate everything about them: the frivolous screaming and crying, hate it; the constant running around and getting hurt, hate it; tampering with everything electronic and/or breakable, hate it; making messes while eating, hate it; and I think all this and the other stuff is in my first post. My point is that if I hate everything about them, it means I hate them too. I don't give a damn about personality, because at the end of the day, they're all the same.
And to answer your question about children of relatives falling into my care, I must say that I fully support retroactive abortion, so I would just sign them up to go be with God.
No no really, if no other family member could care for the kids, I'd raise them. I'm sure I would hate just about every minute of it, but I know what it's like to be abandoned and neglected, and so I would not force that on those children.
If you think I'm disgusting, I am glad you do. Everyone can think all the horrible things about me, and it does not matter, because I would much rather be thought horrible for hating children than being a bad parent. I am proud of the fact that I don't like them and will never have them. It means I will be spared that much misery, worry, and heartache. Other people will gladly embrace those things, while I will do what I can to avoid them. I was not put on this planet so that my life would eventually be run by three little people, and if you're a parent, children do run your life, whether you admit it or not. If there was ever anything that restricted someone's freedom, it's children.
As you can see, I truly believe there is nothing positive about having children, and no one has provided any positive reasons to have them. Even if someone did, children are more of a cost than a benefit, and that is a fact.
And just for a reminder, take another look at post 42. Thanks.

## Post 80 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Tuesday, 07-Feb-2012 22:08:10

You can love your family and not like them. I feel that way about my parents a lot of the time. To hate them, though, I wouldn't go that far. I don't even hate children, even if they do make me uncomfortable. I avoid them when I can, but if I must spend time around them, I usually try to fade into the background a bit and let everyone else deal with them. That way, if it's a family gathering, no one's bitching because I'm not spending time with them, and I don't necessarily have to interact with them either.
Let me elaborate a bit on the discussion that was going on a few posts back about inflicting blindness on a child. I personally agree with that statement. Most of the hell I went through in my childhood was due to ignorance about my blindness. Most of the issues I still struggle with as an adult have to do with all those unresolved things that happened to me as a result of my blindness. Unsupportive parents, pretty much everyone making fun of me and fucking with me every chance they got because I grew up in a small hick town where everyone is ignorant, and don't even get me started on my experiences when I went to a school for the blind. Part of the reason I would never want to have a child is simply because I wouldn't want them to have to endure the current school system, whether they would be blind or sighted, it keeps getting worse every day. At the same time, I recognize that homeschooling isn't exactly emotionally healthy for children either, so there would be no way to win.
Anyway, back to the blindness thing, I know that even if my parents had been supportive of me, there's only so much a parent can do. As soon as you leave the safety of the home, if it is indeed a safe place to be, the world is waiting for you. Depending on how young you are when it comes crashing down on you, it can really fuck you up. So, while I have plenty of compelling enough reasons already to not have children, I would definitely not want to watch a blind child suffer the way I did when I was growing up. At least they would have me to turn to, but I know from experience that the last thing most kids actually want to do is share their suffering with their parents. Whether they think the parent will simply dismiss it, overreact to it, or act unpredictably as my parents did, it can leave a lot of uncertainty, not to mention loneliness and depression that can last much longer than the actual unpleasant events themselves.

## Post 81 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Wednesday, 08-Feb-2012 0:07:35

Deliberately conceiving a child with the knowledge that he/she will almost certainly be born blind seems, to me, an unbelievably cruel act.

## Post 82 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 08-Feb-2012 13:24:19

I can understand the reasoning however. A person may feel that if they have a kid who is blind like them, they can teach that child how to deal with the world as they do. Is that so wrong? Just playing devel's advocate because I personally can see no reason to have kids.

## Post 83 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Wednesday, 08-Feb-2012 13:38:03

Absolutely. People who have experienced grief and injury of various kinds are sometimes better-equipped to help others deal with tragedy. So does this make it okay for these people to influct similar suffering on others so that they won't be "out of work" so to speak?

## Post 84 by CrazyMusician (If I don't post to your topic, it's cuz I don't give a rip about it!) on Wednesday, 08-Feb-2012 13:56:20

I think it all depends on the likelihood. There is always SOME form of risk to having a blind child, just as there is always some risk of giving birth to a child with Downes Syndrome, etc. I think it all depends on your genetics. The likelihood of my passing my eye condition to my future children is extremely low, so for me the benefits outweigh the risks. I realize this isn't always the case, though.
Kate

## Post 85 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Wednesday, 08-Feb-2012 16:51:10

I tend to agree with Voyager, though when I was younger I may not have.
Being blind is expensive, we earn less by and large even when we work just as hard. There is no heritage to be proud of that is exclusive to blindness. It's not being black where you carry black heritage with you and a lineage of African roots.
If I could spend all the money I have spent on my own accomodation over the years on the daughter's education, she would not have to worry about scholarships.
Include software, hardware, taking the lower-end gig than your compatriots because you have to prove something on account of your eyes - definitely a factor in the 20s.
Let alone the fact if I could have seen as a young man I would have taken training as an airline or private plane pilot. My earnings doing that would be considerably higher than they are right now.
And before you say "Boy, that guy is all about money!" prove it: stop taking money from mommy and daddy.
I happen to be the provider in the household, and frankly the providin' gets done but not as well as it would have if I could see.
There are rare exceptions of the blind guy at 6 or 7 figures, but decisions get made based on the rules not the exceptions.
When I bought flood insurance in Florida, I did so based on the zone I lived in. Just because the neighbor's house didn't get flooded, doesn't mean I'm going to do like them and not pay insurance. They are the exception, but the rule is the floods are extremely expensive.
And so is being blind. If you're in school and institutions have been paying for your things, you have no idea yet. All that extra time with transportation? That's gonna cost ya. In the end it always does.
I'm doing all right that way now, since I telecommute from home, fifteen years into the software business I can do that full time. The lengths I go to to make sure the daughter is not disadvantaged? I guarantee I would not deliberately do the man's part in making a blind baby. I don't dislike blind people, I don't have a complex about being blid, I'm just to practical and realistic to see it any other way. I would not schlep off all that unnecessary stuff on any child.
It's something we work around, sort of like repairing the swimming pool or some other structure, you groan through it at times and wonder what ridiculous engineer came up with certain constraints, badly done pipes, etc. You make the very best of it because you're a man {or presumably a woman}, but that doesn't mean you would ever build one like that.
Now, if the baby comes and there is a problem, of course I would be all there, giving it 110 percent. But ahead of time, I think it's totally responsible to be pragmatic about the situation.

## Post 86 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Thursday, 09-Feb-2012 13:40:57

Voyager:
I don't view my blindness as inflicting injurry. I believe the things I have gone through have made me stronger.

## Post 87 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Thursday, 09-Feb-2012 14:32:34

Margorp:
I'm sure this is true for you. However, I have a sighted brother who is in the army. Next time I see him, should I cause him to become blind in order to "make him stronger?" Of course not. That clearly falls into the wrongs category of deliberate, unnecessary harm. The same goes for intentionally producing someone in the same state.

## Post 88 by CrazyMusician (If I don't post to your topic, it's cuz I don't give a rip about it!) on Thursday, 09-Feb-2012 15:37:20

I think what Voyager may be trying to say is that it is reckless to knowingly create a child that will most likely inherit a particular condition (like if a couple both carry the CF gene, the likelihood is 50-50 that any children they have will have CF). Some conditions causing blindness are genetic, others aren't.
Am I right, Voyager?

## Post 89 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Thursday, 09-Feb-2012 18:23:14

But many people carry the genes for various diseases, disorders, cancers, and ailments. Who is to decide what percentage of producing a child with any of those things is cruel? You could have a ten percent chance, and still bring a child into the world that winds up having some ailment. So would you argue that it is cruel if someone has something above a 40 percent chance, or it is cruel that they have the chaances at all to produce a child with some ailment. Either way, that person is purposefully bringing a child into the world that could inherit some ailment or disability.
Also, how about looking at risks outside of biology. What are the chances your child will get hit by a car, catch some contagious infection or virus, get poisoned by some substnce, get kidnapped, raped, assaulted, burned, and the list goes on and on. Bringing a child into the world itself, I could argue, is cruel because just by causing another being to live on this planet means they will face some very cruel situations, and if you hadn't made them, that would not be the case. Having no or low chances for passing on ailments to a child does not protect them from all the various things that are far beyond your control.

## Post 90 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Thursday, 09-Feb-2012 23:31:26

When you make the choice to have a child, you are purposely bringing it into the world, alemints be damned. It isn't cruil it's the way it is. If I had a child and he or she was blind I would not be sad in the least.

## Post 91 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 0:03:39

CrazyMusician, I agree with your point, but I was trying to emphasize that deliberately causing someone to be blind is wrong whether it's before or after birth. I've also heard of deaf parents wanting there kids to be deaf. I find all of these things incomprehensible.

## Post 92 by TechnologyUser2012 (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 11:27:03

post 89, that's so true; even if a parent doesn't pass on some sort of ailment or disease to their child, there are still a billion other things that could go wrong that they have little or no control over, especially in the crazy world we live in today. Therefore, having a child is just a huge risk and responsibility period, one that I'll never be willing to take.

## Post 93 by CrazyMusician (If I don't post to your topic, it's cuz I don't give a rip about it!) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 12:00:31

Voyager, I wasn't making a point, but was asking for clarification on yours. LOL

## Post 94 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 12:17:19

LOL Sorry. I think you made a good one anyway.

## Post 95 by OceanDream (An Ocean of Thoughts) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 13:37:36

OK. Blindness, suffering? I honestly cannot wrap my mind around that, but perhaps it's because I've been blind all my life, and my life really was not all that difficult. I had trouble making friends, but I had a few really good ones, and how can I ask for more? the way I see it, my blindness is not causing me any pain, there's no way it will get any worse, and it's not going to kill me, so why should I consider it suffering?
If I ever did have children, I'm not going to ask the doctor if there's any way they can make the child blind, but even if they told me that there was no way I could have a sighted child, that wouldn't be my deal breaker. I still have yet to decide whether I want kids or not, but if I decide not to, it won't be for lack of loving them. to me, it's one thing not to want to deal with children, but it's quite another to hate them. You were a child once. did you hate yourself? would you have been happy if everyone around you hated you?

## Post 96 by TechnologyUser2012 (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 15:43:20

No, i don't hate children, that's not why I've chosen not to have them.. Due to the horrific unfit parenting I had as a child, I actually did feel unwanted, unloved and uncared for, I was constantly yelled at and blamed for everything that went wrong. Believe me, I would not wish that on anyone or any child, it's beyond terrible.

## Post 97 by OceanDream (An Ocean of Thoughts) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 16:08:13

I'm not saying that's why everyone decides not to have children, but some have specifically stated here that they hate children. Again, I can totally understand a hatred of being around them, especially for long periods of time, but if you hate children, then technically you hate your younger, juvenile self, and the juvenile selves of everybody you know, whether you knew them back then or not. that doesn't even make sense to me.

## Post 98 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 18:39:42

I am one who stated she hates children. Perhaps what I feel you would not call hate, but I do. Children disgust me, annoy me, and only bring on a basketful of worries, burdens, and suffering that I am not willing to endure. I can't even think about the possibility of myself being a parent. It is a horrible and repulsive thought, and it just feels dirty. I even view parents or soon-to-be parents with some level of disgust because they are unfathomably directly associated with children. I just cannot describe the degree of revulsion, horror, and annoyance I feel when I think about or perceive a child.
Also, perhaps this is too profound for me to comprehend, but I don't believe it is possible to look back at myself as a child, and say I hate her. However, it is disgusting to know that I was once an infant, then a todler, and such.
I know this all sounds very strange and others do not understand it, but that is just how I feel.

## Post 99 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 10-Feb-2012 23:55:13

I agree. Kids are annoying and bring with them a boat-load of annoyance. I don't "hate" them, however.

## Post 100 by musicgirl (Veteran Zoner) on Monday, 13-Feb-2012 0:18:48

Wow. Sword of Sapphire, I can't help but wonder, are you happy with your own self? Are you content with the life you have and the accomplishments you've made? Or do you ever ask yourself why you were brought into this world yourself? I mean, in order for your logic to make sense, you would also have to be wondering why your parents chose to bring you into this world to face a billion different possible tragedies yourself. Honestly, I respect people's decision not to have kids, especially because of the huge responsibility that comes with them. But some of your own personal reasons behind it just seem so far-fetched. I guess if everyone thought the way you do people would just stop reproducing and the human population would slowly deteriorate.

## Post 101 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Monday, 13-Feb-2012 14:39:23

And yet, some people who shouldn't be parents continue to have kids, and people who would actually make good parents don't. Speaking for myself, I think it's a matter of common sense. As for suffering because of blindness, true, it was emotional harm more than anything else that I endured as a child. I wouldn't say that I feel that way about my blindness now, in fact, I'm neutral about it. The way I see it, I've been blind all my life, and even if an operation were made available tomorrow that would allow me to see, I don't know if I would go through with it. The movie At First Sight comes to mind whenever I think about that possibility. But to bring a child into this world, whether they're blind or not, seems selfish, because they're going to endure emotional harm and cruelty at the hands of others. Worse yet, they could become bullies themselves. If I ever had a kid who was a bully, I don't even want to think about what I would do. Just the thought of it sickens me and fills me with rage.

## Post 102 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Monday, 13-Feb-2012 15:12:02

Let's face it, you're creating a human beeing just because you want to do so. Deep down that is sort of selfish when you think about it.

## Post 103 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Monday, 13-Feb-2012 15:54:47

@MusicGirl
If you read my post about the potential dangers children are exposed to, you, would realize that was simply a counterargument to Voyager who stated that they believe bringing offspring into the world knowing that the children will most likely be blind is very cruel. In that particular post, I made the point that parents bring children into the world, knowing they will face so much more than just a disability or handicap. On those grounds, I was asking Voyager if bringing a child into the world is cruel at all. You have misconstrued that, so perhaps reading the few posts previous to mine along with that post again may make things clearer.
I myself do not think bringing children into the world is cruel; nor do I think that having children is entirely selfish. Obviously, many people want to have a child simply to experience the joys of having and raising a child, I would not count this reason as completely selfish because this person is making one of the most serious commitments a person can make--to care for and sustain the existence of another being/s. Of course, other people have various reasons for having children, which may be selfish. I think I've previously stated that I think it is selfish to bring a child into the world simply because it is what society expects of you.
I don't think my reasons for deciding not to have children are far-fetched at all. There are no benefits to having children. I think they are annoying, selfish, burdensome, expensive, disgusting, and I'm sure you can look back at all the adjectives I've used to describe them. All of these things are very true, and quite valid reasons for choosing not to sacrifice my everything for nothing.
I do not think everyone should think like I do. The point of this topic was to find out who else was on my team on this subject, and the opinions of others about it.
I just don't think that everyone should have to have children. People should not be pushed to have them, and people who choose not to have children should not be viewed as evil.
I understand that I have expressed my reasons for not having children quite strongly, but people don't seem to understand that it is possible to live a fulfilling life without having children. They think it is a foolish decision, and everyone thinks those like me will change their minds, and while some people do, others don't, so I would appreciate it if people who barely know me at all would refrain from predicting my future and telling me how little I know about it. I know one thing about my future,: I control it. Fortunately, having children is a choice in our culture, and if I don't want to date someone who has or wants children, I will not, and if I choose to take preventive measures so that I don't have children, I will.

## Post 104 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Monday, 13-Feb-2012 19:05:03

True, having children isn't necessarily selfish, but there are definitely selfish reasons to have them. Having them just because you think you should is probably one of the more selfish ones I've heard.

## Post 105 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 15-Feb-2012 12:02:30

The only true benifits to having a child are born out of some notion that you have to pass on your dna.

## Post 106 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Thursday, 16-Feb-2012 22:32:35

Playing catch-up again, so this will be long. . But before I begin that, let me update you guys on my childfree status. On 22 September, 2011, I had a tubal ligation. It was a very easy procedure, and I'm very grateful to add that I haven't had any bad side effects from it. I also have no regrets. In fact, it was one of the best decisions of my life and has given me a freedom that I've never known, both in and out of the bedroom, as I don't have to worry about the side effects of hormonal birth control.
To Dominique Taggart: It seems as if you also have some very logical reasons for not having children. I'm not precisely sure what you mean by old-fashioned parenting, so can't say whether I would agree with it or not, though I do not agree with hitting or the idea that children should be seen and not heard. To Chris N: You hit the nail on the head when you said "I think that having a child is possibly the greatest responsibility available to a person". Sadly, I think too many people, especially young women, are in love with the idea of being married and having children, but are not ready for either one. Today, there's an added complication where the woman believes that she can have a successful career and somehow be the best Mom in the world. At least, in the past, she would have stayed home with them. Now, she tries to be everything to everyone and the children suffer as a result, unless the other parent stays home with them.
To SensuallyNaturallyLiving4Today: I can understand your sentiments. I doubt that anyone here would really harm children. At least, I certainly hope not! Some just seem to not like being around them, but others, as you said, really do seem to have a hating mentality, and that's a shame. Still, perhaps they had to take care of younger ciblings when they were themselves children and hated the responsibility. I've always been an advocate of breastfeeding, but didn't know that it reduces the risk of breast cancer! That's neat. Since I've never seen, I also didn't know that not all women get fat during pregnancy, though I've heard of some only putting on a few pounds. I thought that all women get moody and grumpy when pregnant, so thanks for dispelling that myth. Personally, I dislike large breasts. Mine are small and I like them that way. So I'm glad that I don't have to run the risk of them getting bigger. I, too believe, in green living, and while I couldn't breastfeed, if I did adopt a son, I would give him all natural formula. I'm not sure if I could handle nondisposable diapers, but I would try to get organic and biodegradable ones. I also think that it's important to appreciate the simple things in life and don't believe in rushing out to get the latest and gratest in things. So he'd have toys, but nothing ridiculous. I'd rather have him make up his own games, and when he's older, read or get involved in some form of art or craft, or another hobby like sports, music, collecting etc.
Sword of Sapphire: I can understand your hating certain aspects of children. They'd probably drive me insane as well. But how could you also say that, because you hate certain things about them, you hate the children themselves? And how can they all be the same as far as personality? I believe in euthanasia, in cases of extreme mental retardation, vegitative states, prolonged coma etc. but I couldn't even begin to wrap my head around you saying "And to answer your question about children of relatives falling into my care, I must say that I fully support retroactive abortion, so I would just sign them up to go be with God." Thank The Gods I read on and saw that you weren't serious! *smile*
To FireAndRain: I really can't imagine what it must have been like for you growing up. Even though I've been blind since I was two-months-old, I had very loving and supportive parents, and wasn't teased because of my blindness by my peers. I was isolated by them, which, in certain instances, I think is worse. But you definitely provided a good real life case for my ideas. I, too, think that education is going downhill, and since I would want my son to be brought up as a true Hellenic patriot and cultured, that means I would have to teach him many things. even if we lived in Greece! I wouldn't mind doing it, since it would all be for his benefit, but it really is sad to see what these children are learning today, and what's not being taught. I must disagree with you about not sharing suffering with parents. I actually found it quite comforting to talk with Mom about things. Even now, at 28, I still turn to her for advice when I'm confused or just want to share things that are going on in my life.
Thanks, Voyager, for backing us up. I'm glad that certain people here understand this! To LeoGuardian: I know we disagree on various things, but thanks for putting this into a financial perspective. That's something that never even crossed my mind, but it's certainly true. To margorp: Even if they made you stronger, is it right to make a child go through them? That's like someone who went through a depression purposefully starving his child so that she could learn how to be thrifty and have ingenuity. Surely, there are better ways of helping a child become strong than blindness. To Sword of Sapphire: I can definitely see your point about percentages, and while it's difficult, I think that there should be some kind of abalance. If it's really that low, then it may be worth the risk for some, though I, personally, wouldn't do it. But if it's high, 40 or 50% or more, then I do think it falls under the category of cruel.
To margorp: How could you not at least be sad for your child? Surely, you'd realise all of the things he/she would be missing. While there's always the chance that he/she might be able to see, at some point in his/her life, I find it difficult to understand how any kind of disability couldn't cause at least a bit of sadness of the parents. To OceanDrean: I've pretty much been blind for all of my life, and, like you, haven't really had many difficulties. But I can still see where blindness can cause suffering. Of course, it's not the same kind that someone in extreme pain, with a terminall illness or a serious physical disability may face, but it's still there. I can't jump in my car and go wherever. I can't pick up a book, a newspaper or a handwritten note and read it without a scanner. I can't go to the store, completely on my own, and get what I need without a shop assistant, then pay with my card, again, on my own. There are many jobs that, since I can't see, I can't take. I can't even look into my lovers' eyes, understand light/colour, see the sunrise/sunset etc. The list goes on and on, and while there are certainly many things that I can do and enjoy, why would I want that for my child?
To Sword of Sapphire: That's truly sad. I've never heard anyone describe parents or children that way. I couldn't imagine hating them at all, let alone to that degree. I wonder what made you feel this way? Did you always have these views or did they mature as you grew older? Please don't take this the wrong way, but if anyone's ever seen or read The Witches, you remind me of the characters there. I suddenly got an image of the Grand High Witch saying "children" in that slow accented way of hers' and then another shouting out "dog droppings!" lol
To FireAndRain: I understand your concerns about suddenly seeing, and I have also seen At First Sight. But I'm sure I'd go for it if there was a relatively safe operation out there that could reattach my retinas. As it is, I would love to own something called the Brainport. This is a nonsurgical, noninvasive device that actually lets you see with your tongue!
To Sword of Sapphire: I really like this quote. "I just don't think that everyone should have to have children. People should not be pushed to have them, and people who choose not to have children should not be viewed as evil." It pretty much sums up how I feel on the topic. I was fortunate, in that my family, boyfriend, and friends, all supported my decision to have a tubal ligation. But I've definitely hread about many women (and even men) being told that they'd change their minds and asked if they were sure etc. as if we adults can't make up our own minds! That said, I can see benefits in having or adopting children, especially as they become older and can learn from you, accomplish great things etc. They don't stay children forever. In the case of patriots, if your child grows up and does wonderful things for the country or even teaches the language, history or culture of the nation to others, those are definitely things that can bring pride. If I decided to adopt, one of the proudest moments of my life, next to the day when I receive Hellenic citizenship, would be when my son would join the military, and should he become an officer, I would probably shout it in the street and throw him a huge party!

## Post 107 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 1:00:43

Eleni, when I was younger in junior high school, I thought I wanted to have children as an adult. These feelings I have now developed over the years as I had increased exposure to my nieces and nephews and other children, and learned so much about the reality of being a parent and raising a child/ren.
And congratulations on your tubal; I look forward to the day I get the procedure done and I feel the freedom you do.

## Post 108 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 1:14:27

Tifinitza, I'm glad for you. Remaining celibate can be a good thing too. Nothing can quite take the place of the safety I feel knowing my risk is zero.

## Post 109 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 12:36:24

I guess the thing I don't get is the mentality that it's cruel for two people to have a child knowing the child could be blind. It's not as though blindness is an incapacitating thing. Just as people who choose not to have kids shouldn't be labeled as evil, neither should those who choose to go ahead with having a child even knowing that there's a possibility the child might be blind or otherwise handicapped, especially in situations when the child can still have a full, satisfying life. What would be cruel in my opinion would be to deny the child the chance to even have a life and possibly make something of him or herself.

## Post 110 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 12:42:45

BryanP22, how would this be cruel? To do a cruel act is to cause someone damage or suffering that is unnecessary. How could you be cruel to someone who does not exist? You aren't denying someone a life who hasn't yet been conceived, because the someone you speak of only exists in your imagination.

## Post 111 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 13:08:50

lol Voyager, I found myself thinking of hitting the like button before I realised this isn't Facebook! I could honestly understand both viewpoints here, but I think yours' makes more sense. We're not saying euthanise the child if he/she is born blind, only don't let him/her be born or conceived if there's a high risk of blindness. It's not something like eye or hair colour or whether you're left or right-handed. Those are not disabilities. Does the fact that we now have access to a wide variety of technology and that there are antidiscrimination laws in many countries change the fact that, technically, we are still disabled? Does it make it easier for us to find jobs, not in the technological sense, but in the minds of potential employers? Does it give us access to everything that most sighted people take for granted? Those of us who are totally blind or whose vision isn't really usable and cannot be corrected can't simply slip on a pair of glasses to make things better. If that were the case, then I'd see no problem with it. Every day of our lives, whether we think of it or not, whether it's a bother to us or not, we live in a sighted world and must either do without, make do or find ways to get around obstacles. Do we really want that for our children?
As I've stated several times, why must the child be of your blood? If you're blind and know that your child will be born blind, but you still wish to have a child in your life, why not adopt? You could even adopt an existing blind child! That way, you could have more in common with him/her etc. But why go out of your way to make another one when there are others out there who are unwanted? Could you not love an adopted child as much as one that you bore or helped to create?

## Post 112 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 14:16:57

Tiff, I never said I wouldn't be sad for the child. But out of the darkness comes the light. I've been blind sinse birth and had some verry hard times yet here I am.

## Post 113 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 17:24:35

Five minus one cannot equal five, six, or anything other than four. To try and convince me that blindness is a good thing, or some kind of bonus, is like telling me that I don't understand basic arithmetic. I'm sure you've accomplished plenty in spite of your blindness and will continue to do so, and so have I. That doesn't negate the fact that blindness in and of itself is an unnatural state for the human mind and therefore a bad thing. Darkness equals darkness.

## Post 114 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 18:45:28

But Voyager, I'm in agreement with Brian. I don't believe you ever responded to my counterpoint. Children can inherit or be exposed to a gamut of diseases, ailments, and dangers in and outside the womb. When one brings a person into the world, that person is guaranteed to face some kind of threat, danger, or ailment. What makes that less cruel or not cruel compared to bringing forth a child who has high chances of becoming blind or handicapped in some way?

## Post 115 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 22:40:25

So voyager, you see blindness as "bad" or "wrong?" Well I guess I shouldn't be here should I? I guess many of us shouldn't with that logic ay?

## Post 116 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Friday, 17-Feb-2012 23:10:00

I don't think it's personal Margorp.
We just want to give the kids the best shot, putting the best foot forward. There are a lot of things I experienced which I don't complain about, am not bitter about, but would not willingly subject the daughter to.
Being blind is one of them. I see it as a hardware limitation, a rather expensive hardware limitation at that, but no more and no less. Blindness in itself can only be classed a good thing if sight is a bad thing, since blindness is just an absence of sight. And had I had sight, I would have probably been an airplane pilot or a meteorologist. One would have made me considerably more money than I make now, the other probably comparable.
But it is expensive, and most of us don't have jobs. I've been employed a majority of my working life, about as much as my sighted counterparts. But I'm personally glad the daughter doesn't need to waste the energy on explanations for every little thing she does wwhen she turns around. I think it's harder when you're younger, but for all of us it's hard nonetheless. You run into forms you need to get filled out, and we have this thing we call being inaccessible, the form it completely blank. Sets you, and those who depend on you, back.
One doesn't have to hate blind people, or have a self-loathing complex, to see this. I don't believe being blind is any sort of purpose or benefits other people: things I actually do for a living, and for my community with the Coast Guard actually benefit other people. And when I do something cool or innovative, or just have a good time, it benefits myself. Blindness is just an inconvenient, sometimes profoundly inconvenient, hanger-on. I have never seen it as anything other than a liability. True, it's an asset when the power goes off, or when you need to do something in the dark. We're the perfect ones to run out and fetch something in pitch blac, etc. But I wouldn't give it to the daughter. If she had been born that way, on the other hand, I'd have helped her make the best of things: some of which I got, and some quite differently. I just don't see it as a part of the identity.
And I'm aware of identity: since joining the Coast Guard, there are people who, for better or worse, look at me quite differently. Or being a dad, there's an identity for ya that sticks for life. But the fact I'm not a particularly tall man, or no matter how much I work out I've never been a particularly buff man, those aren't really identity. Physical characteristics with some benefits and some drawbacks. So I don't think you have to self-loathe in order to be practical and honest about the situation when you think about having kids.
My blindness is lifelong but not genetic: they don't know how it happened, I just never got an optic nerve. And the daughter's got one, or two, or however many people have. I've no idea if that one runs series or parallel.
Anyway hope this provides perspective, to some.

## Post 117 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 18-Feb-2012 8:30:48

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see it as cruel to give a child a chance even if there is a high chance that the child will be blind. The only time I think it would be acceptable to abort a child, let's say, would be in cases of rape or when there was a high likelyhood that the child would be born with a more severe handicap that would insure they would never be able to live for themselves.And as far as I'm concerned that does not include blindness. Because quite frankly to say that it's cruel to allow a child to be born despite knowing the possible risks would suggest to me, despite any protestation to the contrary, tat one does, in fact, have issues with one's own blindness. Is it unnatural to hope tat a child of ours would be able to see or otherwise be without handicap? Certainly I do, assuming I ever ahve children. But to go so far as to think it cruel to allow a child to be bon or even conceived with even the possibility of blindness goes way beyond just wishing the best. It's more unfair to the child, whether he or she exists or not, to deny them any chance at all than to allow them to be born. If they're blind or deaf, so be it. They can learn to cope just as we did.

## Post 118 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Saturday, 18-Feb-2012 8:55:45

I don't wanna be repetitive, so I'll say well said, Bryan and margorp. y'all took the words right out of my mouth.

## Post 119 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 18-Feb-2012 14:45:43

Exactly. Because as unlikely as it may be, one of these potential blind children could end up being the first blind president of the United States, not that I would wish that job on anyone.

## Post 120 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Saturday, 18-Feb-2012 14:56:24

I would not align myself with those saying it was cruel. Cruel is a pretty harsh word for devastating acts, in my opinion.
I wouldn't even ask a woman to abort based on such a thing. I divert from those who put it in those terms. Only was saying there is a huge gaping morass of a difference between self-loathing and pragmatism. You guys are talking about the former, I'm talking about the latter.

## Post 121 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Saturday, 18-Feb-2012 15:45:45

Because what I see, Leo, and what I have seen and I am sure will continue to see, is the self-loathing blind folks. The ones we talked about earlier who worship the slate and stylus, the hard core n f b robots, and the everyday blind joe who gets picked on in high school, these people want sight deep down. Oh they will never say it out loud of course!

## Post 122 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Saturday, 18-Feb-2012 22:20:40

I was not speaking about abortion.
How exactly did the self-loathing blind folks get brought up, and who are they? In this context, does it literally mean to hate oneself? Couldn't there be many reasons besides( blindness) why someone might do that?

## Post 123 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Sunday, 19-Feb-2012 0:26:38

I'm a bit confused about the self-loathing blind people as well. I don't recall anyone of us saying that we hated ourselves. We just wouldn't wish hard lives on our children.

## Post 124 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Sunday, 19-Feb-2012 0:48:52

But taking blindness out of the picture does not mean a person will not have a hard life. Oddly, this point has been avoided by Voyager and all who agree with her.

## Post 125 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 19-Feb-2012 0:58:12

I was never arguing that sight would bring about a perfect life

## Post 126 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Sunday, 19-Feb-2012 12:55:25

And I never said you were. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you have stated your belief that if a person knows that their child will be born blind and has a child anyway, then that is cruel to the child. I brought up the point that there are a number of cruel things that happen to people while they live on this planet, and bringing a person into the world makes them a target for almost all of them, so wouldn't bringing a child into the world, as it is today, be cruel altogether? That one question has not been answered.
There is no such thing as a perfect life here on earth. You make it sound as though taking blindness out of the picture will make it easier though. I would argue the opposite. I don't believe there is or has ever been a human life devoid of issues and obstacles. If there is not blindness to make one's life hard, there will be something else.

## Post 127 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Sunday, 19-Feb-2012 13:06:01

And I wouldn't use the word cruil. Kind of harsh as leo said.

## Post 128 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Sunday, 19-Feb-2012 14:02:31

I'm totally with Raven and Leo on this. if it weren't blindness making a person's life difficult, I guarantee something else would take its place.

## Post 129 by GreenTurtle (Music is life. Love. Vitality.) on Monday, 20-Feb-2012 0:34:56

And to that question, Sapphire, I do have to answer in the affirmative. I believe bringing a child into this world is cruel no matter what the circumstances are. There are plenty of other people who are willing to procreate, so why should I? I personally believe that all the things children are exposed to at a younger age confuse, hurt, and otherwise fuck them up, which continues the cycle of fucked up people from generation to generation. So, yes, I refuse to involve myself in that altogether.

## Post 130 by TechnologyUser2012 (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 20-Feb-2012 11:13:48

post 129, totally agree with you! Couldn't have said it better myself.

## Post 131 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Monday, 20-Feb-2012 11:32:06

Personally, one of the reasons that I chose not to have my own child is because of the world itself, especially Greece, where I would hopefully be living by that time. I would want to wait until things calmed down before I even considered such a thing, even if it was adopting! No one is saying that sighted people have easy lives with no trouble. Everyone has their own issues. But why add another ontop of it? They would have enough to deal with as it is, let alone a disability.

## Post 132 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Monday, 20-Feb-2012 12:11:59

It makes sense. After all, why create more problems. However, my reason for not having a child doesn't really have to do just with the world at large. The fact is, as fire and rain said, it is just continuing a bad cycle. I still would not use the term cruil because that suggests that the child knows what you are doing but it still forced. Of course that cannot happen because they weren't born yet.

## Post 133 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Monday, 20-Feb-2012 12:39:04

I can agree with the last two posts, and using the word "forced" verses "cruel" still does a decent job of getting the point across.

## Post 134 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 21-Feb-2012 13:12:46

Again, that suggests that the child had a choice and he or she obviously did not.

## Post 135 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Tuesday, 21-Feb-2012 15:05:32

I don't agree with any of this because it implies that it is better to not exist at all than it is to exist and be blind.

## Post 136 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Tuesday, 21-Feb-2012 17:09:36

Not at all, Raven.
People make decisions all the time to better the lives of their offspring in many more ways than one. Say, not have them grow up poor, give them a shot at a better education, etc., so whether or not to have one with a set of issues is only part of what people do to give their kids the best shot they can at things.
That doesn't make them cruel or mean, or imply they think people who are already here should not be.
With a kid they've only got one shot at growing up, so people try and make that the very best shot at it that they can. That's all.

## Post 137 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Tuesday, 21-Feb-2012 17:13:25

Well said. Certainly, finances would also play a role with me. I wouldn't have or adopt a child if I couldn't afford to take care of him/her.

## Post 138 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2012 13:37:17

Leo, I understand what your saying. But what I am pulling out of the argument on those who are on Voyager's side, is that anyone who knows they have high chances of passing on blindness or having a child who will be blind is cruel if they bring such a child into the world. In this circumstance, this is not just people saying they would not do such a thing themselves, but that anyone who does this thing is cruel, and so should not do it either. While I have decided against having children for the gamut of reasons already mentioned, and I think abortion should be legal everywhere, I don't think it's okay to say that people with disabilities or have high probability of passing one on to their child/ren should not have children, or if they do, it is a cruel act.

## Post 139 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2012 23:41:31

Yes, and again, cruil is such a harsh word. It would be cruil if you sprayed acid in a baby's eye to blind it but outside of that...

## Post 140 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Friday, 24-Feb-2012 0:38:03

I agree with you that cruel is a harsh word, but I am forming my counterargument around the context of Voyager and her supporters' argument.

## Post 141 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 24-Feb-2012 17:22:59

Well I've already voiced my sentiments. Cruel would be not giving the child a chance. As unlikely as it may be one of those blind children might someday become president and turn the country in a new direction LOL. Now if you knew you weren't in a good situation financially to have a child and you did anyway, that might be cruel, particularly if you didn't make the effort to give your child the best upbringing you possibly could. But I do not believe that simply having a child when you know he or she MIGHT be blind is cruel.

## Post 142 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Monday, 27-Feb-2012 13:50:41

I couldn't have said that better myself.

## Post 143 by OceanDream (An Ocean of Thoughts) on Tuesday, 28-Feb-2012 9:34:28

I will never understand the concept that bringing a blind child into this world would be subjecting them to a difficult life. Life itself is difficult, by that logic. Get over it.

## Post 144 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Tuesday, 28-Feb-2012 11:52:58

Not all difficulties are equally difficult.

## Post 145 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 28-Feb-2012 12:49:32

True, but everything is a struggle if you think about it.

## Post 146 by TechnologyUser2012 (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 28-Feb-2012 13:17:59

why I think intentionally bringing a blind child into the world is cruel comes from my own personal experience growing up with a blind parent and applies only to me. I do not think for a second that if the person in question had sight, they would have been a decent or better parent. I'm sure there are a lot of wonderful blind parents out there. But still, because of my own negative experience, I will not bring any child, blind or otherwise into the world. I, however, unlike some folks on this site, do NOT (NOT is in capital letters for jaws and screenreader users) think it is my place nor appropriate to impose my views, opinions, beliefs etc. on others. I’m mature enough to accept the fact that everyone does not think like me, and that my views are no more right or wrong than anyone else’s, just different. So, if a blind person or any person for that matter, feels that they are ready to take on the risk and responsibility of having children, that’s absolutely fine, and I wish them all the best. I’m just saying its not for me, for a number of reasons.

## Post 147 by OceanDream (An Ocean of Thoughts) on Tuesday, 28-Feb-2012 17:16:53

It's one thing to say that *you* will not do something. it's quite another to say that anybody else who does it is cruel. I'm not saying we all need to have children, no matter what the consequences, and those who don't are hateful and mean. I'm saying that if you think blindness is the worst thing any given child is going to face in his or her lifetime, you've got quite another thing coming. I honestly wish blindness was the biggest struggle in my life. How happy things would have been for me then. But then again, if I'd been any happier, it may not have been as easy for me to appreciate the best moments for everything that they were. I know not everyone's life as been as easy, but you do have the capacity to facilitate a better life for your child, should you choose to have one.
Having said that, I do admire those who've admited their reasons for not having children is because they're just not built for that type of lifestyle, for one reason or another.

## Post 148 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Tuesday, 28-Feb-2012 17:54:08

using the fact you had a bad upbringing as a reason for not wanting to have a child doesn't make sense to me. I've lived that too, and although my outlook is a rarity, I view my upbringing as a tool to give my future children the life I never had. I learned from the decisions those who raised me made, and I'm certain I'd never inflict such pain on anyone.

## Post 149 by Sword of Sapphire (Whether you agree with my opinion or not, you're still gonna read it!) on Wednesday, 29-Feb-2012 20:42:53

Um, it makes sense to me. Though a bad upbringing is most certainly not one of my reasons to live a child-free life, I can certainly see how it would steer someone else away from having children. They might realize that they portray certain characteristics of their parents/guardians; or perhaps they see the tension and struggle that occurs between parent and child, so they might not want to deal with that all over again. There are a gamut of explanations for that reason, but a "bad upbringing" can be defined in so many different ways.

## Post 150 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Wednesday, 29-Feb-2012 20:47:48

I understand that aspect, Raven; I simply don't agree with letting it negatively affect you. still, everyone is different.

## Post 151 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Wednesday, 29-Feb-2012 21:41:55

I had a good upbringing and still know I'm not parent material. Although I live independently, on some days simply doing the various sorts of things necessary to meet my own needs is overwhelming. For a couple of years I had a guide dog. Caring for him took energy. I certainly did not abuse my dog, but I did not always like the way I acted either. I cannot imagine starting an entire family of humans under my roof (including husband) with there various needs and emotions which I must keep in the back of my mind at all times.

## Post 152 by little foot (Zone BBS is my Life) on Thursday, 01-Mar-2012 6:46:28

I guess if that is your opinion.
If I were to have a different life with out a child and would have knew before hand all that I had to go threw.
I probably would not had a child.
I love my daughter and would not change her or what she does.
I thought it was all about changing and feeding but as she got older I relized it was a different story.