# Guide dogs or canes?

Category: Animal House

## Post 1 by jen91_09 (777) on Wednesday, 07-Apr-2010 10:33:43

Ok, so I'm doing a paper on guide dogs for my English class, and it has to be 8 pages. For those of you that don't use a guide dog, (anybody use guide horse?) could you tell me why not? I need some specific reasons (other than the ones I've came up with from talking to a couple people around here) for my counter argument. Also, if you don't support the use of guide dogs, why not? The rough draft of this is due tomorrow but the final isn't due till the 20th, so keep posting please!
Thanks bunches
Jenna

## Post 2 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Wednesday, 07-Apr-2010 12:47:44

I don't use a guide dog or horse but am not against either. The advantages of having a dog over a horse, from what I understand, are that the dog can stay in the house. the horse needs to stay outside in a barn. But horses have a different kind of sight than dogs. I'm not exactly sure why so don't want to speculate. But you should look it up. Personally, I believe that only people who work and/or who travel a great deal should have guide animals, unless they need them for other reasons, i.e. a service animal. I don't know about horses but guide dogs are trained to work and actually love it. Many times, I've heard of my friends being on holiday from school or work or being unable to work or to get out much and their dogs are absolutely miserable because of it. I also feel that it's extremly important to have good mobility skills when choosing to get an/or train a guide animal. As much as it would be easy to say "ah, let the dog/horse take care of it", it's important to remember that he/she still relies on you to know the route or to be able to handle some things on your own. My skills aren't where they should be and I don't get out much, which is why I don't have a guide animal in my life.
Some other things to consider. Dogs are also harder to care for than canes. You don't have to take a cane to the vet, buy it food, groom it etc. You can also get a new one if you're tired of the old or even switch them around to suit the weather, say if one has a better handle for the cold. On the other hand, guide dogs and horses provide companionship, love and a bond that inatomate objects like canes and gps systems can't. Losing one, I'm sure, is one of the most difficult things ever, but for those who truly love animals and who want the connection, it's worth it.

## Post 3 by jen91_09 (777) on Wednesday, 07-Apr-2010 13:16:26

Thanks :)
Yeah I have a guide and I totally would be absolutely devistated if something were to happen to him.
Jenna (and guide dog Bilko)

## Post 4 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Wednesday, 07-Apr-2010 13:36:22

Of course, and anyone who says "it's just a dog, get another" should be punched in the face. Of course, if and when someone is ready to do so, that's a different story. But I've heard some people who were downright cruel and who couldn't care less or understand the situation.

## Post 5 by jen91_09 (777) on Thursday, 08-Apr-2010 11:13:37

lol I agree. They're sooo much more!

## Post 6 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Thursday, 08-Apr-2010 18:06:47

Well if what you want is opinion I will opine: I have no dog and won't get one.
I could never trust a lower life form that I didn't in whole or in part engineer to guide me, that's in fact my opinion. If A guiding school wouldn't turn me down for that, they should.
It seems the dog owners have an emotional attachment to the animal, which I think I would not. Since animals are basically all emotion that would be unfair, or perhaps inhumane.
All that aside, I think that creating some form of robotic mechanism that could perform some tasks of a guide dog while allowing the user to interact with the environment like one does with a cane - find curb edges and the like - would be an ideal engineering feat. It wouldn't, in my view, totally replace the dog, as some people really like them, and perhaps the user base of dog users would be thinned to only those who would make the best masters, aka ensuring the dog's health and safety, as well as keeping them from being a general nuisance.
As to animals being guides in general, I have read about the horse program, and the horses seem a lot less like attention sluts than dogs so often are. They are described as more passive, and the like.
They probably feel more than they think, like a lot of lower life forms, but do present some interesting alternatives.
If we could develop a robotic alternative, I wonder how that would change the landscape? Anything with emotions potentially will have a bad day, while machines have no more than glitches. We notice the glitches, but that is because of their relative rarity. Plus, with a machine there are no humane treatment / end of life issues, which there justifiably are for an emotion-based creature that has lived out its days in service to another.
Those are my thoughts.

## Post 7 by Senior (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Friday, 09-Apr-2010 15:47:47

I wouldn't use a guide dog. I think it's cruel to make dogs guide you where ever you want to do. We wouldn't put humans on leads and insist they take us to a location, then when we get there, make them stay in the room with us all day, possibly under a table.
Having said that, I do recognise that there is a loving bond between owners of guide dogs and the guide dogs they own. However, the people wouldn't have even bothered bonding with the dogs if they weren't guide dogs.

## Post 8 by jen91_09 (777) on Tuesday, 13-Apr-2010 13:22:45

thanks guys. Interesting idea about the robot.

## Post 9 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Tuesday, 13-Apr-2010 13:26:34

while I never would've thought of such a thing, I do agree that's interesting, particularly for those who feel that they couldn't handle, afford or be truly good to a dog or horse. It's also alot less traumatic if the robot steps into traffic instead of a living animal. But, in most cases, robots are only as smart as they're programmed to be. I'd be interested in knowing if this hypothetic machine could take the place of an animal in the sense of quick thinking or coming up with alternative solutions to problems on the spot.

## Post 10 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Wednesday, 14-Apr-2010 20:56:47

Yes, it could.
Robots ar in industrial and dangerous places all the time. They are far more intelligent than animals; the value of animals being in their emotions. A robot would be capable of knowing that the oncoming item is a motor vehicle and probably how fast it was, a robot would have all the proportional and distance logic we do because it's made by us. In short, an animal may feel it wants to assist you, and no doubt can do it to some extent, but a robot actually could provide the assistance and the calculations to arrive at its conclusions would be made far more quickly than an animal could.
It wouldn't like you, or appreciate being fed or petted, it would feel nothing. However it's purpose as a guide would probably surpass that of an animal very quickly, basically because it would have superior firmware, when it comes to thought / decision-making. Because it has no feelings, it would not make for a good companion. It would be a guide appliance.
For those who have heard of the Japanese emotive robotics experiments, this is really fascinating stuff, but they can't pass the Turing test - in layman's terms they can't really fool you into thinking they're human if we put you alone with them for fifteen minutes or more. So when they help autistic kids, or mentally disturbed people, it's because they have dedicated algorithms / artificial intelligence dedicated to the task at hand, meaning they know all that we know about the condition in question (Autism or being mentally disturbed), and are capable of learning.
However, learning for a robot is different than learning for you, or even an animal. An animal has emotion that relates to learning, and can make mistakes often based upon how it feels. A robot's only mistakes are if it arrives at the wrong conclusion after having observed a set of cause/effect relationships. This often gets resolved by it testing its conclusions. The virtual robots that run the New York Stock Exchange supercomputers made one major mistake in predictions in 1987 - the mini crash which happened then, but basically much of AI (artificial intelligence) is based upon evolutionary principles sped up.
A guide dog cannot do this, because you don't get hundreds of generations of dogs with all the data from each preceding generations being transferred into the new one. Each new one has to start all over again, and naturally you're subject to the limiaations emotion may place on you.
There is no 'guide' emotion, as far as I know, so while a dog functions well as a guard or as a companion, I think your chances of success would be better being guided by artificial intelligence, combined with some periferal sensors.. Note how some of the new Lexus and other automobiles can parallel park by themselves among other things. Most humand drivers experience at least some trepidation when trying to squeeze into the ever-shrinking parking spaces made available these days, that and they have just had a long day and their emotions are fried. However, the technology in these automobiles doesn't feel, it just does the math to calculate based on sensor readings.
Now I may be wrong, but in my initial study of this guiding business, I read a blog posting a few years ago on the topic of a dog's commands.
It was striking to me how much the handler did what seemed ritualistic activities, foot placement, all sorts of things, and they made no bones about it: this was for the benefit of the dog. Makes sense, the dog is an emotional creature, and subject to the sluggishness presented by biology in general, things a robotic guide would not be. In short, you would learn the directives you issue it, and those directives are communications only.
The biggest downside right now to robotics, aside from certain hardware constraints we may have for the guide itself, is that we need robots to respond to your emotions. This is what a dog does well, or any animal for that matter, prioritize based on your response. If your dog makes you hit a pole and you yell at it or whatever, it handles the situation differently. Animal lovers I'm not being mean, but basically, describing in robotic terms, the cause / effect relationship tells it there is a problem that needs rectifying. Since the mistake is made plain to it, you probably showed it the pole or it deduced based upon your response that running you into the pole was not desirable, it recalculates the action back to a common base and reruns it with any number of scenarios which would help avoid the situation, eliminating other negative responses, leaving it with a list of available actions when it runs into this situation again. In other words, it figures out within milliseconds if it's a computer, longer if it's sluggish biology, that two options for future avoidance of the pole should be eliminated: running you into the street, and just sitting there rather than walking into it. So its sensors know it can walk you around in the opposite direction of the street.
And here's what the dog does well now, that robotics is just getting up to speed on: The dog knows how important it is to you, e.g. it prioritizes this error correction higher than other simultaneous processes or what we call threads, perhaps doing so well as to keep it of less priority than to warn you that a bicyclist is racing behind you. The Japanese are working on this, socialization in robotics, so that a machine will be able to do similar prioritization even though it can't feel, becuaseit can be programmed to recognize patterns of human response. If you're creeped out by this, welcome to the club I guess: My wife has told me innumerable times she finds all this very creepy. Me I find it interesting, but anyway that's what it's going to take to get you a robotic guide:
Consolidate all the guide learning into a cloud hive somewhere, and perhaps equally important, socialize the robot to recognize the patterned responses of the guided, so as you respond naturally when its algorithms arrive at the wrong conclusions, so that it prioritizes particular learning the way an animal with emotions can. Add to that, the phenomenon people say happens with animals where they "know" what you want before you say something, this too is calculable.
So there ya go, when there's a funding source for all this research, we might get robotic guides on the market, and when we do I'm guessing they will far surpass any biological guide - at least surpass them as a guide. Not an anti-animal statement, but biological systems just don't calculate that fast, or transmit data nearly that quickly. The reason DNA technology can be worked out on computers now in research labs, is simply because we can process it far more quickly than DNA in biology could ever replicate and mutate itself, i.e. evolutionary principles speeded up.

## Post 11 by Daenerys Targaryen (Enjoying Life) on Wednesday, 14-Apr-2010 23:44:18

I like having my guide dog. I can't have a guide pony where I live, but I would like to try working with it for a day for the experience. A robot maybe better at guiding, but I wouldn't like it.

## Post 12 by Harmony (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Thursday, 15-Apr-2010 9:37:51

I would love a guide dog. At least they're good companions as well as a guide, but a cane is just ... well a stick thing that you just fold up and throw in the cupboard.

## Post 13 by Marissapc2010 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Thursday, 15-Apr-2010 9:57:53

Uh. no thanks. I'm getting a guidedog in may, and I think I'll stick with that. Dogs have ben very successful for years and years. I think I'll stick with that, not some weird robot guiding me around. People think we look weird now with canes, imagine how we'd look with a machine pulling us around. No thanks, not for me. A guidedog makes you so much more approachable, everyone I no with a dog talks about how many more people come up to them and strike up a conversation than they did with a cane. I'm a dog girl, all the way.

## Post 14 by SoaringOnMusic (Generic Zoner) on Thursday, 15-Apr-2010 11:42:47

I've heard people say that they like having the tactile knowledge that a cane provides. You get much more feedback in these terms with a cane than with a dog. You can walk down a street full of obstacles and not be aware of most of them because your dog takes you around them. Or you may not know how many intersecting sidewalks you've passed because the dog ignores them.
As for using robots as guides, I think it comes down to what you want. A robot will make less mistakes than a dog, but as many people have pointed out, there's a bond you can have with an animal that you can't with a machine. Personally, what I love best about having a dog is how we work together as a team. It's both challenging and rewarding. Humans have worked together with dogs for hundreds of years hunting, herding, etc. Some people love that working relationship between human and animal and some people can do without it. You can apply that to the cane as well. With a cane, you don't rely on anything but yourself, and some like it that way.

## Post 15 by rat (star trek rules!) on Thursday, 15-Apr-2010 12:34:33

I plan to get a dog some day once i'm a little more in a place i can travel. To replace a dog with a robot seems a little cold to me in some ways, as you make it sound like we force the dog to guide. I know that isn't true, most of the dogs i've worked with for training are more than willing to guide you because of the breed of dog they are.

## Post 16 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Thursday, 15-Apr-2010 22:49:21

I certainly meant no ill to people who have or like or want dogs, you all are the ones who ought to have them. But there are probably those who could benefit from a guide, but aren't well-equipped to bond with a nonhuman. I didn't mean at all to make it sound like I thought the dogs were forced, I have no way of knowing. The ones I've seen seem better managed and better cared for than household pets.
But I did want to respond to a few things. "Robot" doesn't have to be weird. Machines look any way we want them to, within the scope of their use of course. It could be downright fashiona# if that was your pleasure, but certainly not an alien.
As to human / dog partnership, and the thousands of years bit, well, humans have used tools for longer than they have kept pets. And most of the purposes dogs are put to involve their nose, which we can't really emulate technologically yet. Their nose, and their emotions, both of which you get for free with the hardware / firmware.
I have country relatives who bought a cattle dog to guard my niece when out on walks, sound the alarm I guess, when it smells bear or cougar. I asked how they taught it. They didn't. It just comes with their breeding is what they said. The idea of a guide is relatively new, and took some rather courageous customers trying it out at first.
I don't know if I would want to use a bot myself, only because I do like knowing what I can detect with a cane. But perhaps both will have their uses.

## Post 17 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Thursday, 15-Apr-2010 23:50:08

I'd definitely feel more comfortable with a robot over a cane and, most likely, over a dog as well. while I love animals, and would certainly want a pet dog, I think it would be far easier to work with a robot. for one thing, I can simply tell it where I want to go. Assuming that it would have a gps in it, which is not unreasonable, then I could enter any destination. Whether I'd been there or not, it could safely get me there without getting me lost and without letting me get hurt. I don't like the idea of having to constantly follow the same route, of not being able to just go out anywhere I'd like because I don't know the way and neither does the dog. Of course, the dog could guide me, but without me knowing what's going on as far as location, we'd both be lost. I don't trust myself with my cane at all. I'm always worried that I'll get hurt by falling in holes, veering into traffic (that last is a major problem for me), or lost because I don't have a gps. So yeah, bot all the way if I can get one, especially if it's made in Japan. In the meantime, what other high tech navigational aids can I use?

## Post 18 by SoaringOnMusic (Generic Zoner) on Thursday, 15-Apr-2010 23:54:51

Robozork, just wanted to say you have a point about how useful a robot guide can be. Depending on the area a person lives in or how much traveling they do, a dog is not always the best solution. I don't know the numbers but I imagine there are many more blind people who do not use dogs than those that do. I'm very curious and interested in the workings of a robot guide if one is created, and I think it becomes another tool we can choose from. As I said before, it's probably not the tool I would choose, but it gives people another option.

## Post 19 by jen91_09 (777) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 16:49:45

That's really kinda cool,but totally creapy too lol! I am totally a dog person all the way, and would be afraid that the robot would malfunction--knowing my luck-- and then I'd be screwed! I'm not saying dogs are perfect, of course not, but I'd trust a dog ahead of a machine. If these ever do come out I'd like to see one though.

## Post 20 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 18:16:16

Just one problem with the robot thing. Just like us life forms, machines malfunction. I could just seem myself walking along with my guide droid or whatever and all of a sudden it has some sort of systems failure. Not only that but what happens if it rains? Machines, particularly electronic ones, don't like water.
As for it being cruel to have dogs guide us, the whole reason guide dog programs were started in the first place was because of a few dogs who TOOK IT UPON THEMSELVES (note that particular key phrase), to guide blinded war veterans. I remember one particular case in Germany back during I believe World War I, where a psychiatrist or perhaps a medical doctor took in a recently blinded vet. THe doctor had to leave on business of some kind, but he left the vet at home with his dog and his live-in household staff. When he returned not long after the dog had taken to guiding the veteran around the property. All indications were that the dog had taken it upon himself to do this. Besides, if a dog in training proves to have health problems that would interfere with guidework they're never forced into it, at least not if the agency doing the training is a reputable one.
I myself don't have a guide dog at the moment and I'm sort of swinging back and forth about whether I want to apply. Well it's not so much a matter of want to. I do want to at least try, and to get past the home interview and progress to experiencing what it's like to actually work with a guide dog. I have a feeling that even if by trying I discover that a guide dog just isn't right for me, that would be outweighed by not doing it and possibly regretting that decision for the rest of my life. But I recognize certain facts about myself that COULD interfere with working a guide dog. I can be a bit istractable sometimes. Most times when I travel I'm fairly good at paying attention but like a lot of us I have moments. I could see where that would be a problem. And yet ont he other hand having a dog might give me more incentive and therefore make it easier to stay alert. So something that could be detremental could prove to spur me on to do whatever needed to be done. I just don't know since I've never actually worked with a dog. But I think the biggest concern for me is the financial end of things. I want to be absolutely certain I can afford to care for a guide dog financially, especially since I already have a cat, one for whom moreover I hope to get a girlfriend or little brother once I'm able to move into a place that'll allow that. But I'm getting way off topic here so I believe I'll shut up now.

## Post 21 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 18:33:48

I will only address a couple things:
Industrial robots get wet, stepped on, dealt heavy blows by falling objects, all sorts of things, so the prospect of not letting your guide device get wet is unrealistic: It would be an indoor/outdoor appliance.
As to its malfucntioning, you're thinking too much of a computer. Of course the robot has a computer, but it is not a personal computer onto which you may install spyware, viruses, go on the Internet, all sorts of input that comes from other things that are not you and not your surroundings. Most game machines don't crash, hospital systems including nurse robots in Japan do not crash, because the rigors applied to a closed system for testing and delivery are way different - even impossible - for the release of a computing device like your PC, your MAC and to a limited extent your iPad though Apple would love to make that a permanently closed system.
Robotic systems have been performing in space, in industry and many other places without the ubiquitous computer crash. But that's because the only software that ever goes onto it is at the time of manufacture, and not by somebody later downloading something without knowing what it was. Trust me, developing for a device is a lot different than developing for desktop software and the like.
I am admittedly not that knowledgeable on the biology front, and my brother, a marine biologist, says the systems aren't as known or controllable as what we software / hardware people work on. To me, the advantage of a robot is it could be used, not exclusively, but in areas where using one would make sense. Travelling in snow, going through what you already know is a very difficult area with construction, going places where you would like to go really fast. I mean, I'm a pretty fast cane traveler but you just can't go as quick as you can when being guided, meaning you can't go at a good trot or a run. I think one would still need to know how to get around what they call mobility but that would be true of any form of travel. But you want to just walk through your neighborhood, you can take your cane and leave the robot in the utility closet.
As to creepy, well I told my wife (on a different issue with a robotic device), so long as it didn't have a face and behave like a human, you would probably feel less insecure about it being smarter than you, which it isn't anyway.

## Post 22 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 19:58:07

But what if someone wanted to always use it and didn't have good mobility skills? could it be done?

## Post 23 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 20:58:54

I'm against the use of guide dogs for the following reasons.
Having a guide dog would limit what I am able to do in my life. I love to travel and I would like to visit some middle eastern countries one day, and travelling with a guide dog would make that difficult, and I don't have friends or family who could look after it.
also, and this is my personal view, but I think people with guidedogs are given too much positive discrimination in our society. I think it should be a landlords right, guidedog or not, to say that they don't want an animal in their property. I think it should be a shop owners right, guidedog or not, to disallow an animal in their business. There are people who have cultural issues with dogs, and I don't think you can just take that away because it's an assistance animal, and I respect that. they smell, unless you bath them every day, they shed hair if you have the sort of dog that does that and they do leave their mark that's hard to get rid of.
Finally, and again, this is my personal view, I dislike the use of dogs because they often give sighted people the impression that people with dogs are more independent than people with canes. this is absolutely untrue and I hate the fact that the question that most people ask me is 'why don't you have a dog?' I use a cane and I've travelled to several countries on my own unassisted why would I want to make my life inconveniant?
I've spent a lot of time trying to convince sighted people that you don't need a dog to be independent but they just don't get it and it really annoys me.

## Post 24 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 21:08:59

It sounds like you have alot of anger towards the situation. I can understand and respect why you personally don't want one, but I totally disagree that people should be allowed to discriminate against guide dog users strictly because of their culture. If they hate them that much, they can go back to their own countries. Some people may not like others wearing cultural clothing, cursing in public, holding hands, kissing etc. but most western countries are not totalitarian regimes or religiously closed-minded enough to force everyone into the moulds that they think are right. America may have alot of problems, and I often put it down, but at least these freedoms do still exist here.

## Post 25 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 21:13:02

the thing is is that in this country we don't just allow people to take their dogs everywhere. and I don't see why guidedog users should be any different. the way I see it and always will is that using a guidedog is not a necessity, it's a choice, so you should deal with the consiquences of that choice. people don't need guidedogs, they choose to have them. in this country you have to have good mobility skill with a cane before they will consider giving you a dog.

## Post 26 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 21:20:36

Okay, I certainly agree that good mobility is a must for having a guide dog. But for some, it's not a choice. some require service or guide animals because of other issues. for example, a blind person in a wheelchair can't exactly use a cane and someone with bad balance could get extra help from the dog that they may not receive from a cane. Guide and service animals are working animals. They're not pets. Technically, it's not a necessity for people to leave their houses in most cases. There are some people who never set foot outside their own front door. So when they need to, the blind can call on sighted people to help them. By that logic, canes shouldn't be allowed either. Now isn't that ridiculous?

## Post 27 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 21:24:56

this topic however didn't mention them, and i'm speaking about people who are perfectly mobile without the assistance of a dog. for most guidedog users it is a choice, not a necessity, and there should be some differenciation between them.
people who actually *need* the dog, I haven't got a problem with being allowed to go anywhere, but as for those who choose it, they should have to deal with the situation as if that dog is a pet because they do not actually need the animal to guide them, they choose to have the animal.
though, i'd actually still draw the line at private landlords being forced to take in people with animals. it's private property and like I said, dogs leave a mark that is incredibly difficult to get rid of.

## Post 28 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Friday, 16-Apr-2010 22:16:43

In answer to your question about whether or not you would need mobility to run a guide appliance, well, you would need to know your surroundings, or how to function. Similar to the youngster asked me why they needed to take the driver's test, now that they have GPS.
Technology is unequivocally our slave, and we its master. To master it, we not only form it, but know how to control and direct it, which means knowing what you're doing.
I can't enter into the debate with Swiss Griff, because I'm biased: I don't like dogs, they have shat on the sidewalk and I've had occasion to step in it an hour from my house, to me they stink and are generally attention whores, but a lot of people like them, so that's their thing provided the dog doesn't try to sniff me nads, or lick me after it's been cleaning its arse.
So I obviously am too biased to join that debate ...

## Post 29 by Reyami (I've broken five thousand! any more awards going?) on Saturday, 17-Apr-2010 12:05:30

when one chooses to get a guide dog, they have to accept the responsibility that comes along with it: picking up after him or her, grooming, making sure the dog gets enough exercise, etc.

## Post 30 by SoaringOnMusic (Generic Zoner) on Saturday, 17-Apr-2010 17:24:51

SwissGriff, I want to address a few things. A responsible dog handler will groom their dog on a daily basis, reducing the smell considerably. Also, a well-behaved dog does not "mark".
I disagree that because some people choose to use guide dogs over canes, then the dog should be treated as pets. My argument is that these are "working animals" and personally, I think they should be held to higher standards than the average pet. A guide should be well-behaved, clean, and under control by the handler at all times. If the dog is causing a disturbance or being a threat to others, the owner does have the right to ask that they leave the property. They can also charge for damages. I think we'll just have to disagree about this, but I think it's a matter of equality, and asking for fair treatment for people that use a dog as a mobility aid is not pushing it too far.

## Post 31 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 17-Apr-2010 23:48:56

I agree. That's one of the few areas, to be quite honest, where I feel the Americans with Disabilities Act got things more or less right. As for Swiss Griff's comment about people with guides getting too much positive discrimination, we can't help the fact that sighted people in general feel more comfortable addressing or dealing with a blind person accompanied by a dog than one using a cane. I've noticed that there's a certain element of pity when some people address a cane user, whether it's intentional or not. And it's not as though business owners aren't permitted to draw the line if a service animal actually does disrupt the business. If the presence of the animal would cause a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business then he or she can be barred. Or if, as stated, they do cause damage to the premises. And the owner is permitted to seek restitution in those cases. So it's not as though they have no rights whatsoever. As for Robozork's robot guide thing, even if such a thing were someday developed, the chances are very high that it would be quite beyond the financial means of any blind person to afford. And it's not entirely true that closed systems can never malfunction. It may be rarer than, say, a computer, but they do malfunction on occasion. So I ask again, what would you do then? You say technology is our slave, and yet in many ways we're as much slaves to technology if not more than its master. I know very few people who don't have a least a cell phone and more often than not they've got more than that, and a lot of it's not even strictly necessary for survival.

## Post 32 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 18-Apr-2010 20:03:49

I agree, plus you can't say if a person is a dog user by choice or need. That would be difficult for say an owner of a store to know. Dogs do not leave anything behind. Some people smell worse, so should they be banned say from the McDonalds, because they are musty? Smile. I don't have a dog at this time, but have and a properly kept dog is a wonderful thing.

## Post 33 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Sunday, 18-Apr-2010 22:40:27

Only real reason I don't have one right now is finances. Well that and I've come to realize that I can be a bit distractable sometimes, obviously not a good trait in a would-be guide dog user. And then of course I live in a very small studio apartment with a pretty good sized cat, so a guide dog might be out in any case if for no other reason than lack of space. I'd feel far more comfortable trusting myself to a dog than some robot. Say what you might even supposedly closed systems malfunction sometimes. And like I said even if guide robots were developed they'd probably be far too expensive for any blind person to afford. Same would hold true for the implants you sometimes hear about on the news that are supposed to help with vision problems. Even if one were someday developed that would make any difference at all to a completely blind individual it would probably be prohibitively expensive.

## Post 34 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 19-Apr-2010 7:32:36

well here goes. I am waiting to get a guide dog I tried in december at GDB with the two week class but it was too fast for me. So I'm re applying and hopefully they'll take me back again.
I've been a cane user for 40 years. Here is why I am changing.
As I get older, I feel I need an extra pair of eyes so to speek. I love my cane, but I love the cues and stuff I get from a dog.
I love the positive perks guide dog users get. It's a wonderful feeling tos see a harried executive type running through the parking lot. They see a guide and suddenly poof!!!! that rush and hurry fades away and The person Gets down and says "oooooh!!!! A doggy! Can I pat it?"
I love that they are dependent on me. My kids are grown up and my grand baby lives relatively far away. I need something to lavish affection on.
As for the robot. Creepy!!!! I'm sorry but if I ever get a robot it better be quiet and look normal. I'm not going to walk around with a beeping et.
Griff, you always are so angry. Maybe you need to think about the attitude you are presenting to the world. A smiling happy countenance will give you much more positive discriminiation then the negative attitude I see on here all the time.

## Post 35 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Monday, 19-Apr-2010 8:32:17

I'm the sort of girl who doesn't want attention when I'm walking down the street.
I'd prefer to listen to my music than talk to total strangers who have no idea. I'm a private person and I don't want people asking me questions.
and this is the second biggest reason for why I do not, and will not, get a dog, because the amount of attention that I get would double, and I would probably go insane and attack someone.
My issue is that sighted people do not get this amount of attention, most people are able to go through life totally unbothered by other people, and that's how I want my life to be.
you are right, whoever above said that cane users get more pity than dog users, and this is an incorrect state of affairs. noone, guide dog or cane user needs or deserves pity. it is my least favourite emotion, and it's the least useful.
I have been travelling independently since I was 12 years of age and have been dealing with the misconceptions of sighted people since that age, and you would be angry too if you had had more than 12 years of that sort of stuff from other people.
Just once I'd like to be able to go somewhere without people pointing out my blindness, asking me a stupid question or making an unwelcome comment, making an asumtion that I'd be better with a dog, or assuming that I'm totally blind when in fact I am a partial and can see them staring at me.
We will never have true equality until people learn to respect our privacy as much as other peoples.

## Post 36 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Monday, 19-Apr-2010 8:34:57

oh yes, and the point I wanted to make before was this.
a person can choose to allow animals or not allow them in a private property here, but they cannot disallow assistance animals.
I think that should be allowed because like other animals, they still are running the risk that they will damage the property.
also in this country, disabled people can plead the case that they are unable to clean the property themselves, and that sort of argument has held up at the rental board.

## Post 37 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Monday, 19-Apr-2010 11:58:44

I've had almost thirty years of the stuff you mention SwissGriff, and yet I'm not as angry or bitter as you seem to be. Maybe a bit synical (I have less faith int he intelligence of my fellow Americans than their motives mostly). And there are ways you can deal with the attention a gide dog will get you. I'd much rather have the guide dog sort of attention than the cane kind. Like I said, service animals are one of the few areas where I think the ADA got things more or less right. It's when you get into employment that I think they screwed up. It's too general there. But that's a whole nother topic. But I don't see our access laws changing anytime soon with regard to our working animals and I don't think they need to.

## Post 38 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Tuesday, 20-Apr-2010 9:08:29

Swiss,I've been traveling independently since I was 6 or seven and with a cane since i was 12. I'm now 52. That's been 40 to 46 years.
Yes, there are idiots in this world. Rude people can and do show themselves. I've encountered many variations of the aformentioned. We all have a choice. We can laugh, educate, and/or note them and move on. Conversely, we can do as you do and sow the seeds of misery and ill will.
Yes, I do feel sympathy for you. Such a negative and angry view of the world and its inhabitants can neither be healthful for you nor those around you.
Of course it is your constitutional god given right to be a bitch. I would never stand in your way. If you changed your focus a bit, you might be surprised what you can learn.

## Post 39 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Tuesday, 20-Apr-2010 18:28:46

You know Turricane, that reminds me of the woman I recently met through my mother's counselor. She's about seven years younger than you are (which would put her about fifteen eyars older than I am), and she's been blind her whole life. She seems to have taken the same train of thought that SwissGriff has taken, and not just about guide dogs. She feels it's not worth it to try getting a job if you're blind, and even if you do manage to get one under no circumstances are you to contact your voc rehab counselor since they'll get you fired. And I've had little luck with the voc rehab system here in Idaho (at least not the Commission for the Blind itself), some of whose staff do seem to feel that if a blind person gets SSI it's not particularly urgent that said person find work. I may be synical but I still have at least some hope of finding a job and not only that, making some sort of mark on society even if I never became famous.

## Post 40 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Tuesday, 20-Apr-2010 23:57:43

And getting to a coment SwissGriff made earlier, it's perfectly possible to still travel with a guide dog. I've known of many blind people with guide dogs who could still travel internationally just as easily with the dog as they had done with the cane. I'm doing my best to respect your views but they aren't entirely accurate. Yeah there are some places you might not want to take our dog depending on their personality. Some dogs have difficulty at the zoo, or rather the animals react to the dog. And you wouldn't want to take your dog to a loud concert. But it's been my experience, at least from what I've observed from friends who have them, that guide dogs generally allow for much greater freedom than canes ever do. And like I said there are ways to deal with the attention you get. Also, addressing another comment made by someone else, you can get around the dog ignoring obstacles, or at least intersecting sidewalks. If you have a route where you need to turn at, say, the third intersecting sidewalk to get to the business you have to visit, it's possible to train the dog to recognize the route so they can take you there. I presume the way that would work is that the first few times you walked the route with your new dog, when you got to the part where you needed to count sidewalks you would have the dog heel, then use your cane to find the right place to make the turn while leading the dog on his or her leash. At least that's what I've gotten from the various instructors and dog users I've spoken with over the years. Do that enough times and the dog will catch on, especially if it's a route you take regularly.

## Post 41 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Wednesday, 21-Apr-2010 4:11:05

you can travel with the dog internationally yes, but you are limited as to where you can, or should take the dog.
India, the middle east and some asian countries are no places to bring an animal if you want to take it back into the country you came from, and I would like to visit some of these places.
secondly, brian, I am not like that woman you describe. getting a job and contributing to society should be everyone's aim in life, otherwise you're just taking from society and not giving back to it.
I think you miss my point entirely. I don't want attention at all. It's my right to have privacy, it's my right to sit on a train and listen to my mp3 player like any other human being. Guidedogs are so in your face and have a presence that attracts attention, and unfortunately because so many people choose to have them, it has a negative effect on cane users. as a dedicated cane user, I have a right to be annoyed about this because it disrupts my life.
And sighted people often have the same atitude when disrupted by other people, but for some reason when blind people get annoyed about it it is infinately more worse to a sighted person. People are shocked if I don't want to answer their questions and allow them to marvel at me not because of the perceived rudeness, but because it's a blind person doing it.
I spend a lot of time in the city, and see this often. sighted people wouldn't dream of stopping a sighted person and asking if they need help or asking questions of them, but they do to a blind person, and if we're not happy about it, they are shocked, when if they actually stopped and thought for a moment about how they would feel about having their privacy invaded, they would understand.
Like I said, I am a private person. I like walking along streets with my mp3 player going and I dislike being interupted, just like any other individual with my tastes, and people should respect that, just like they would any other person.

## Post 42 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Wednesday, 21-Apr-2010 8:49:55

as for guide dogs and traveling, a guide dog user can sometimes get upgraded to coach plus. What a thought. If the airline wants to do that, I'm fine with it. Those extra few inches can make the difference between hell in the air and a trip that's enjoyable.

## Post 43 by rat (star trek rules!) on Wednesday, 21-Apr-2010 12:15:23

ok, consider this. if you don't want attention, but yet you think no blind person should from your views, what's left. sighted people do offer help to other sighted people, so where you got that from, i really have no clue.

## Post 44 by SoaringOnMusic (Generic Zoner) on Wednesday, 21-Apr-2010 16:03:38

Hi Brian. Yes, you're right that you can train a dog to recognize a particular intersection or, say door, you want by repeatedly showing it to them and praising them for stopping there. Originally, I wanted to make the general point that some people might like to travel and know their environment by the feedback they get with a cane. For example, if for some reason, a person likes to know exactly how many intersecting sidewalks there are along a street, a dog wouldn't be the best mode of travel for them. But, as you said, dogs can be taught to show you the ones you need.
I might be criticized for not being assertive enough, but my view is that asking the general public to not think of the blind as different and therefore something to be curious about is asking human nature to change. Facts? The majority of people are sighted. The majority of people have never in their life dealt with a blind person. I have to live with that and deal with it. I choose to roll with the punches and make the best out of it. Of course, everyone is free to feel however they want about their own situation.

## Post 45 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Wednesday, 21-Apr-2010 18:16:12

as a cane user who is soon switching hopefully to a dog, you make a valid point about missing those intersections. for me the safety factor of a dog far outweighs this.

## Post 46 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 21-Apr-2010 22:35:18

There are ways to feel if you are at intersections, and sometimes you can hear them. As far as being a private person answering a few questions is not invading privacy I hope, and it is ture that sighted people stop others for varying reasons, such as directions. Want to know about bus roots, and times? Ask the blind man or woman. Smile. They know.

## Post 47 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Thursday, 22-Apr-2010 22:30:22

I just need to work on not becoming so easily distracted by things like, say, walking past a sprinkler at just the wrong moment. That way I can stay focused on working the dog. And I want to move into a bigger place if I can so that the dog and the cat have more space to stretch out.

## Post 48 by season (the invisible soul) on Thursday, 22-Apr-2010 22:46:40

as both dog and cane user, i must say that both have their advantage and disadvantage. having a dog means more work, more duties, more respondsibilities. in some way, is like having a baby. needing to mind the business of it's food and it's waste. however, at the same time, it also bring the joy and companionship like a baby does.
quite agree with the attention bit, either you like or not, people tempt to come to you because you have the dog. no, that isn't right. they come to your dog instead of you. that is the part which anoy me greatly. i want to do my own thing, listen to my mp3, or, simply doing nothing but not answering questions regarding my dog. i dont have time for things like that.
using cane is great, it allows flexibility that guidedog user might not have. it have least respondsibility, ones you get from one distenation to another, you can simply fould your cane away, and not worrying about it till the next time you need it again.
as far as traveling goes, not too sure how many of us, who have guidedog will choose travel overseas with it. pretty much doubt if many of us will do. take myself as an example, who's a frequent traveler within Australia and overseas, i wont particular take my dog with me, even within Australia itself, unless i'm pretty sure that the place i go is all right for the dog to be. also, what is the point to have a dog with me, when i go to places that nieghter me or the dog been before? it is somewhat, useless for the dog to say the least.
however, if i travel overseas, i'll in quite definite will leave her behind. i would like her to travel with me for sure, but at the same time, i'm not ready for all the dramas, stress, pressure involve on it.
but on ther other hand, there are people who are more suitable with a guidedog than a cane. maybe not for people who have some sight like some of us here, but people who is totally blind might find guidedog somewhat useful on locating things, places, and stuff like that. yet, it come to personal prefference and how willing one willing to take up the respondsibility that come with a dog.
in breave, not everyone is suitable to have a guidedog, but most people is suitable to travel with cane. however, there're people who are more suitable to use a guidedog than a cane for one reason or another.

## Post 49 by Miss M (move over school!) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 1:21:02

Really glad to see this topic and the discussions it's sparked. I've been contemplating lately whether I'd like to get a guide dog or not.
The responsibility aspect of it is a huge weight in my mind. Having to constantly consider another personality and life form whenever I want to go somewhere is daunting and worrisome.
At the same time, though, I plan on moving to a much busier, city-like area. Having walked with only my cane and used lots of public transport with it, I can tell you that sometimes crossing the street can be awful: too many people, too much movement, too much sound to completely focus on making a safe journey across multiple lanes of traffic. I feel as if another set of eyes and ears would be invaluable.
Still, dogs do bring attention naturally and that can be a pain. I know that for myself, having a guide dog would be more or less a "security blanket" in order to feel more confident and safe in public areas or at night. I don't think that's a fair reason to get one.

## Post 50 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 13:04:00

sighted people don't stop to tell other sighted people that there are some stairs in front of them, to ask them if they need help crossing a road, or stuff like that.

## Post 51 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 15:03:18

They might if it's an elderly person or someone with a physical disability. And they sometimes will tell you that even if you have a cane. So saying it only applies to guide dogs as you seem to be hinting is false. And as I said, people can't help that sighted people like dogs and feel more comfortable addressing a dog user than they do a cane user even at those times when you yourself need to get directions or something.

## Post 52 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 15:11:38

I don't get why so many of you are against people simply offering help. I don't mean the morons who insist on it after you've respectfully said you don't need it. But what's wrong with someone asking if you need help crossing a street or telling you that there are stairs? they're being nice and it could come in handy sometimes like when it's a busy street or the stairs have no railing.

## Post 53 by rat (star trek rules!) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 15:55:38

exactly. i accept help when it's offered, and if i need it, but even sometimes if i know an area i'll still take help to get someware quicker.

## Post 54 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 16:23:00

I'm the same way. So I don't see what the big deal is. I can understand wanting privacy, I want that as much as the next person. But at the same time the last thing I want to do is alienate the sighted community in case there's a time when I ever really do need help. Word can spread after all. Some sighted people only have to meet one spoiled blind person and they think we're all like that.

## Post 55 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 18:04:32

to clear up a misconception I saw someone bring up, a good friend of mine is blind, in a wheelchair, and uses her cane quite proficiently. just like everything else, it takes practice and work, but it's doable. where there's a will, there's a way...

## Post 56 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 18:19:26

also, I'm a dedicated cane user and feel I can get around much better that way. I wouldn't wanna add to that people stopping to ooh and ahh at my dog if I had one. I feel they see the dog before me, and I have a major problem with that.

## Post 57 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 18:29:26

I was about to say the same as the person above me but I had to log back in to post, I met a lady once who was in an electric wheel chare and use a verry long cane, so it is possible.

## Post 58 by Izzito (This site is so "educational") on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 19:05:27

At the end of the day its all about preference and what works better for you. I myself are a guidedog handler and for me its been one of the best choices I've made. I've traveled with my guidedog within the U S. as well as internationally with no problems. Its a matter of making it work.
With that said, I've also seen great cane travelers its just whatever works best for people.
I guess one should always remeber that their are obviouslly more sighted people than blind people and when you are out and about you're representing all of us because one bad or good encounter with a blind person may shape up the view of those sighted people. So if you have a guidedog keep him clean and well behaved after all it is what is expected lol. And if a cane user sharp your movillity skills it makes it easier for people to assist and such lol.

## Post 59 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 19:44:43

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the, "you're representing all blind people" crap. I'm an individual, and people either accept me or they don't. that's not to say we don't have to work harder at times, but I live my life as I see fit...blind or not.

## Post 60 by season (the invisible soul) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 19:48:15

to post51 and 52, i believe most of here is saying, when you reject someone help because you simply dont need it, they insist on helping, that is where thing gets ugly. cause, to be honest, most time, those that offer help doesn't know what exactly they are doing for one thing, and they, usually push you or your cane around like you are the stairing whill of a car or something. on top of that, if you are a guidedog user, it could put both you and the dog in danger by their distracting behavior towards the dog.

## Post 61 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 20:23:46

Fighter, in the eyes of the sighted, yes you are indeed representing all blind people, whether you yourself believe that or not. If you're the first blind person someone meets and you behave in a spoiled, arrogant manner, there are a fair number of people who will judge others by your example. You may consider yourself an individual but a lot of sighted folks don't see it that way. So in their eyes at least, yes you, and indeed every one of us, is "representing" the rest of us when we interact with the public. So if one blind person behaves arrogantly and acts spoiled there are those in the sighted community, and often these are the ones who seem to end up in important positions I've found, will judge the rest of us by that one person's actions because that was the first impression they got of us. To stear this back on topic, if someone meets a blind person using a guide dog who seems more confident than the cane user they met last week they're of course going to make the assumption that a guide dog is some magical solution even though we all know they're nothing of the sort. And it goes back to what I and others have said. We can't help that sighted people like dogs. So if we're out and about and someone wants to ask about our dogs we just have to deal with the situation as best we can and as diplomatically. I'd much prefer having to talk someone into waiting a bit to pet my dog, assuming we were going the same way and would have the time, than get the pity I often get walking with the cane. But as has also been said it all comes down to preference. It just surprises me how many misconceptions there seem to be about guide dogs even among blind folks.

## Post 62 by Squeak (rythmic banging expert!!!) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 20:23:52

*smirks* sharpen your cane skills! You know who you are. LMFAO! lol. Take into consideration how you are with animals, as well as if you are responsible, having a guide dog requires responsibility. Guide dogs are great for companionship and mobility. I, personally would prefer a guide dog over a cane. But I agree, it is a matter of preferance, responsibility, and overall personality, and the ability to function independently.

## Post 63 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 20:47:14

I guess we can agree to disagree about me representing the blind community as a whole...we don't say that about other people. that's another debate for another topic, though.

## Post 64 by season (the invisible soul) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 21:21:47

to post 62: absolutely. there're people who have a dog but don't necessary have the mobility skills who, in my opinionn is somewhat useless. it is bad for the dog, considering they breed it for working purposes.
to post61: i'm not sure if i can agree with you with the assumtion that you made towards the sighties. again, as both dog and cane user, i found that usually, people will leave you alone in terms of helping you if you traveling with a dog, they offer lease help, but they interested to distract the dog by talking to it, playing to it, and things like that.
in their opinion, dog knows exactly where they going, so, they are quite happy to leave the helping part alone.

## Post 65 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 23-Apr-2010 21:59:28

That's why my experience with Guide Dogs for the Blind a few years ago made me so angry and has more or less soured my opinion of them. I'll be the first to admit that in no way am I a perfect traveller with a cane. In fact far from it. But at least I generally know where I'm going and what I'm doing. And yet they defered me because of some things that were hardly within my control, such as the layout of my neighborhood and the fcact that like a lot of people I found it hard to walk in 30+-mile-and-hour winds when said winds were directly at my back. I've met people bigger than I am, sighted ones no less, who have trouble with that. And yet a few years earlier they not only admitted but paired a girl whom I'd met, a girl who like me had been blind more or less since birth but who refused to use her cane and generally had absolutely no idea where the hell she was going or what she was doing. And she graduated training from what I heard. All I can say is I feel sorry for that poor dog, assuming of course that she still has it. For his or her own sake I sincerely hope not. But I agree that it does come down to personal preference. I just don't liek that a few people on here have hinted, or seemed to, that we should all forget about dogs and either go with another animal or in Robozork's case with robots. I just don't see that as at all practical, even if the technology is there and was one day developed into such a device. Chances are extremely high that it would be prohibitively expensive.

## Post 66 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Saturday, 24-Apr-2010 11:44:58

Guide dogs are also prohibitively expensive, only donations cover it. Same for horses, so you are correct if we had a guiding appliance it would necessarily be funded in order to work.
As to the blind community thing, I'm in agreement with Fighter of Love and Life. You know, nobody finds it acceptable to assert one black person equals all, and in fact they expected better of us white kids, that we would not stereotype. So while on the one hand, no pandering for porr little spoiled blind person, if one is like that, on the opposite hand, no pandering for ignorant and stereotyping person expecting their one experience to represent all. That is a gross insult to the many functional sighted people who don't stereotype. Stereotyping like anything else, is a choice.
Note it's always the negative. If one is quite competent in an area, they're "not like all the other" fill in your fave explitive here ...
And I repeat there are innumerable sighted people who don't do any of that stereotyping, just like there are innumerable men who aren't sexists, whites who aren't racists, religious people who aren't book burners, animal rights lovers who don't terrorize businesses, and the list goes on and on.

## Post 67 by rat (star trek rules!) on Saturday, 24-Apr-2010 14:53:58

we're not saying all sighted people are like that, and where you got that from i really don't know. but you can not disagree, there are people that will judge like that. As for my personal view, having a dog would be very useful, but you also need good cane skills. my mobility instructor actually taught me to use dog and cane in tandem, and it works nicely if you can balance it out.

## Post 68 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 24-Apr-2010 16:18:47

Robozork, you only get the dog and your first bag of food for free. You might get reimbersed (SP?) for part of your veterinary costs depending on the school, but the rest is up to you. And plenty of blind people still use guide dogs and are able to care for them well in spite of that, so no, guide dogs aren't exactly prohibitively expensive. A robot on the other hand most likely would be. I think it far more likely that a rehab agency deciding whether or not to help you acquire such an aid would be far more likely to be willing to pay for the relatively low cost of a guide dog than one of these guide robots. And in the event of a malfunction the cost of diagnosis and repairs would still be on your shoulders, which is true of guide dogs also but at least you can get compensation for some of that.

## Post 69 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 24-Apr-2010 18:37:34

robozork, thanks so much for adding your comments on the representing nonsense. I've heard that way too often on this site and totally agree that I'm an individual. as I've said in another thread, I represent several different groups. ut that doesn't mean that I consider each and every one of them when I walk out the door, that I'll stop being myself just because it may make a certain group look bad. I'm me and if they can't see that then they're the blind not to mention the stupid ones.

## Post 70 by Marissapc2010 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Saturday, 24-Apr-2010 19:58:22

a dog and a cane? sheesh. if I needed a cane to work with a dog I think I'd just keep the cane. How can you hold things, do anything with both? that's just to much

## Post 71 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 24-Apr-2010 21:09:07

I don't like being the poster child, no, but it is a fact of life. Smile. I never used a cane when traveling with my dog, so that is interesting. I like them both and agree with Season they have pluses and negatives. A dog still is a beautiful traveling companion. In places I've never been the dog was better then the cane. I could give up feeling so to speak, and concentrate on figuring. Smile. People do judge, and I find that taking a few minutes to wxplain a thing gets people happy, and they leave you along. I've had people try to feed my dog, so I explain, lie of cours, these dogs have to eat special stuff, and if my dog were to get sick I'd be lost. Smile. If it wasn't nailed down my pet could suck it up, but you never know what people are offering. If I really want to be left alone, an I do love my MP3 player too, I simply say so, by saying, I really love this song I'm listening to, and I hope you have a great day, clap on the headset and get lost. Smile. Rudeness just doesn't work for me. Last sighted people that see somine driveing say a Mercedes thinks automaticly they have money, when that could be further from the truth. So rude blind people are all of us. hahaha
Peace.

## Post 72 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Sunday, 25-Apr-2010 1:10:34

What I don't understand is using a cane and a guide dog at the same time. Even the hand not taken up by the harness has to be free since commands are visual as well as vocal. As for the representing business, we ourselves may choose not to believe that we're representing the entire blind community, but like it or not plenty of sighted folks do judge us all by the first one they meet. So yes, in their eyes at least, we're not individuals, however much we ourselves might actually be so.

## Post 73 by Perestroika (Her Swissness) on Sunday, 25-Apr-2010 13:57:36

the thing is, tiffinitsa, is that I have no issue with busy streets and I never use railings anyway. if you can use a cane properly, you don't need to.
so what I am sick of, is being offered help when I don't need it.
and if i do need it, I will find someone who's job it is, and ask them, I won't ask a random off the street, because I would consider it annoying if they asked me, and not, for example, someone who works for the train station or airport.

## Post 74 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Sunday, 25-Apr-2010 17:19:47

Well that's just the way it works. Sighted people are going to offer us help from time to time whether we need it or not. About all we can do is be as polite as possible about it to be prepared for those times when we do need it. Because like it or not there's always that time when we need to ask someone we don't know for directions to such and such a place.

## Post 75 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Sunday, 25-Apr-2010 17:42:50

You forget that a guide dog takes approximately $20000 was the last I heard, to raise, train, and the rest of it before you get it. If you were to pay for that on the market, it would be more than any technology. Low-cost? I don't think so: The schools are, and should be in my opinion, funded by donations to ensure dog users continue to get dogs, just as us cane users can continue to buy canes. However, make no mistake about it: a dog *is* prohibitively expensive, except the donations cover the cost of raising, and the most expensive cost, training, the dog.

## Post 76 by SoaringOnMusic (Generic Zoner) on Sunday, 25-Apr-2010 20:36:43

Closer to $50,000 per dog. And I only know one school's estimate.

## Post 77 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 8:37:30

Brian!!!!!! Figehter!!!!!!
bull crap, horse hockey, totally nonsensical!!!
If a person judges all people from one example, it shows an extreme formlack of judgment and intelligence. Give us a break. I don't judge all arabs from one or all african americans from one. If we did that, we would rightfully be called ignorant racists. Give it a rest. There are plenty of arrogant nasty socially inept sighted folks of all races, genders, and cultures. They don't worry about how they are acting so why should I as a blind person? Normally, I am a happy individual who believes the glass is half full. I love to interact with all kinds of fdifferent people. If I were sighted, it would be that same way.

## Post 78 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 8:38:36

oh yea, on thursday, I learned I'm going to GDB in august!!!! I'll let y'all know what the differences are.

## Post 79 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 11:27:01

turricane, I think you meant fighter? I didn't agree with Brian...I was the one saying what you just reitterated, which is the fact that I'm representing myself...not the blind community as a whole. just wanted to clear that up. you hit the nail on the head when you said we don't say that about other groups of people, so why should it be any different for us? I used to fall into that trap, but thought better of it when I realized it wasn't logical.

## Post 80 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 14:34:37

fighter, i'm so sorry!!! what an idiot am i. please forgive.

## Post 81 by Marissapc2010 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 15:54:42

seeing eye in less than a month. can't wait.

## Post 82 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 18:03:14

doesn't that time pass on leaden feet?

## Post 83 by Marissapc2010 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 20:30:09

yes. I went in october for a youth weekend and loved it. applyed about a week later. had my home interview in november. got my exceptence letter december 29, and ever since then it has drug so so so slow. finally I have less than a month. its so exciting.

## Post 84 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 20:50:59

no worries Holly; just wanted to clear it up for ya. *hugs*.
congrats to you and Rissa, though; I look forward to knowing how it goes for you all!

## Post 85 by Miss M (move over school!) on Monday, 26-Apr-2010 23:36:22

You guys haaaaveee to make threads about the Guide Dog experience. Pleeeeasseeee. I wanna know.

## Post 86 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Tuesday, 27-Apr-2010 0:21:07

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I stand by my statement. THere is, however much we might try to deny it, some truth in it. In the eyes of at least some sighted folks, even if not our own, we are indeed representing the entire blind community. The vast majority of sighted folks are indeed open-minded and decent, but there are still an alarming number of them who do indeed judge all blind people by the first one they meet. Narrow-minded? Yes. Totally wrong? Yes. But unfortunately it does happen. So if they meet one like, say, an acquaintance of mine here in town who seems to feel that her blindness elevates her to the status of royalty or the next thing to and therefore arrogantly demands things from people she has no business demanding them from, they will indeed judge the rest of us by that one. There are people like that and yes, they sometimes seem to end up in positions of importance. So no, my statements aren't complete bull crap however much you might choose to believe or even I might wish. It does happen sometimes, even if not often. As for the guide dog thing. I wouldn't be surprised if a guide robot, especially if we were talking about an ambulatory one that actually travelled with you under its own power, cost at least twice the cost of the dog. I wouldn't be surprised if someday a device was developed that could make it possible for totally blind people to see and it too turned out to be well beyond the financial means of most of us to afford it. People are willing to donate money to train intelligent animals for our benefit but I seriously don't see us receiving guide robots free of charge. I still think they'll be well beyond our means. And I'd stil be worried about a malfunction regardless of it being a closed system. They do go out from time to time even as we humans and yes, dogs do. As for schools, I'm considering applying at Leaderdogs, Guiding Eyes or GDF. And yes, if I do get into one of them I do plan on blogging about it.

## Post 87 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Tuesday, 27-Apr-2010 1:26:54

I want to get a guide dog and reading this post is making me want one even more. I agree with Mrs. M. There should be a post about you guys experiences with the process of getting the dog and taking it home and how it was having it home. Also the things you faced threw out the whole deal.
Maybe a post called
Guide dog Q & A
People can ask questions and those who has been threw it can answer.
Sorry if something is already up like this. I haven't looked.

## Post 88 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Tuesday, 27-Apr-2010 1:27:48

Oh sorry, I ment Miss M

## Post 89 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Tuesday, 27-Apr-2010 9:13:42

Thanks for thinking that we'd be interesting enough to read. I'd be happy to do something unless it is treading over old ground that our soon to bee seeing eye allumn will have covered.

## Post 90 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Tuesday, 27-Apr-2010 9:16:12

brian, since i can't change your mind, let me ask you this? How is catering to the lowest common denominator,helping you or any of us? Ignorant people either need to lear or be left behind. There are some folks who believe that reality is an inconvenience and don't want it to ruin their day.

## Post 91 by Marissapc2010 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Tuesday, 27-Apr-2010 18:18:48

I'll try to post every so often on here while I'm there but I'll probably be pretty busy. if you want to look me up on FB and read my updates there about it whitchI am more likely to do more often cause I can post on the go you can. marissapc2010@gmail.com is what you can type in to look me up. just write me a messege and tell me your from here and that's why your adding me and I'll aproove.

## Post 92 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Tuesday, 27-Apr-2010 18:57:20

I didn't say it was. I was merely pointing out that I have in fact observed what I've said to be true. I in no way said it was right, only that it is, unfortunately, true sometimes. And in fact I do tend to ignore such people myself. I was just pointing out that they do exist, and that they do sometimes have real power to inconvenience us.

## Post 93 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Wednesday, 28-Apr-2010 1:05:58

Is there a better breed of dog that is better for shorter people like myself?

## Post 94 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Wednesday, 28-Apr-2010 8:56:20

if you are really short, they will take that in to consideration. They make all sizes of labs and shepherds. A friend of mine who is under five feet got a tiny black lab. he is adorable. it also doesn't have as much to do with the size as the speed. your walking and speed is as important.

## Post 95 by bozmagic (The rottie's your best friend if you want him/her to be, lol.) on Thursday, 29-Apr-2010 19:20:05

Aw'w'w don't! I've been training with the UK GDBA for 3 months now and just achieved what I feel is quite a big thing, considering the relatively short time since they've taken over my mobility support from SAVI (Surrey association for Visual Impairment). Yes, I walked, almost jogged in fact, with my rehab officer Fiona, from the first crossing point, all the way over 4 roads, one of these, quite a busy downhill main road, to the general store down the bottom of our hill. This would take me on average, 20 minutes at a moderate to slow pace with the cane, since I'm having to feel my way for landmarks, driveways, not so clear grassy or gravelly inner shore lines Etc, but with the training handle? so far, no worries. We walked back up the hill to my house here on the training handle as well, about, 20 minutes walk all together, during which time, Fiona of course, was giving me my first insight in to the various vocal or visual commands telling the dog where to go or what to do if say, I wanted to indent in to a side road when the dog was sat at the curb expecting to cross over when I want to go a bit further round the corner in to that road before crossing over and turning in to the main road again. Now, I admit, I slipped up, I was forever, forgetting to tell Fiona to either, go left or right when I'd crossed the road or to indicate right both visually and saying right to her in the same instant, but it's all part of the learning curve. Whereas I didn't have to audibly give my cane directions when I was using it, I now have to pretend Fiona holding the other end of the training handle is the guide dog, and in later sessions, we'll work on what happens if and when the dog is distracted by cats, smells or anything that could potentially put it off the job of getting me from A to B safely.but even though we're just a rehab officer and first time applicant team, I'm already realising my full potential after just that one session I've had where I didn't use my cane the whole time. I think a dog could and would, bring me unimaginable confidence and independence. What's more, I wish it was next Tuesday morning already, when we'll be using the short handle once more.
I was actually, pointed in the direction of this girl's blog and her own experiences of first tiime guide dog ownership, but sadly, the orriginal GDBA facebook guide dog group has been removed, so I can't go back and find the link, although I might recognise the blog if I were to google and find it again. I'll probably post it in this topic if I do.
Jen.

## Post 96 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Friday, 30-Apr-2010 11:13:34

I totally agree with those who've asked for updates on guide dog training etc. I'd like to extend this request further to include a board devoted to guide dogs (or other animals) and their handler's experiences. Everything could be covered there and all sorts of questions could be asked. If you guys like the idea, I can post it on the suggestions board.

## Post 97 by bozmagic (The rottie's your best friend if you want him/her to be, lol.) on Saturday, 01-May-2010 14:05:22

Hmmm! I've had a think about that Tiffany, but that's what this Animal House board's all about, isn't it? It was also suggested earlier on in this topic, that someone starts a thread where individuals can update with their own progress reports and experiences of both applying for, receiving and owning guide dogs, from the initial home visit, mobility assessment, training, going to the School, training with the new dogs, coming home, aftercare from our respective local support teams, Etc. Bit different here in the UK from the US by all accounts. You go wherever they can squeeze you in here from what I read in the first two info leaflets, incidentally, the first of which, I have a spare Braille copy, so if anyone who lives in the UK has either lost one or simply, wishes to go for a guide dog themselves, well, either PM or QN me here on The Zone.
Jen.

## Post 98 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 01-May-2010 14:11:00

Well, that's still a neat idea. I'd also be interested in comparing these experiences with those of owner/trainers. I'm wondering if there are any of those on here or if any groups exist for them? I've got a dear friend who's one and she does an amazing job with her dogs.
Eleni

## Post 99 by season (the invisible soul) on Sunday, 02-May-2010 8:53:31

there're support groups around for dogs guide handlers, i know there're a few on yahoo groups, also a few on google groups. what one needing to do is to search for it on google or yahoo or any of the search engin, they should have information within seconds and within few buttons or few clicks on the computer.
also, every individuals schools, take GEB, GDB, Seeing eye, and organization as such for example, surely they would have news letter for their clients, and they would have clients' corner where one can get some help.
not a bad idea to set up a support group if you so wish, but bare in mind, every individual might come from slightly different way of training, and every school might varies a bit with the way they train, and follow up process. take the most basic, toileting and feeding for example, every school will have different tecnic to tacker with that.
and, seriously, if someone in desperet need for help or support, the best point of contact would be the trainer, or the school itself, cause they would have the most information about the dog, client, and the matching process.

## Post 100 by bozmagic (The rottie's your best friend if you want him/her to be, lol.) on Tuesday, 04-May-2010 13:13:32

Well I don't think it would hurt to have a Zone guide dogs thread or even board all the same.
Jen.

## Post 101 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Wednesday, 05-May-2010 11:36:06

well if you think it's a good idea, are you willing to moderate it? would you be willing to present it to the Cls?

## Post 102 by bozmagic (The rottie's your best friend if you want him/her to be, lol.) on Wednesday, 05-May-2010 13:10:49

It isn't just me who thinks it's a good idea, but yes, I would certainly be willing to present it to the CLs.
Jen.

## Post 103 by kolby12091988 (Generic Zoner) on Tuesday, 27-Jul-2010 21:08:27

I prefer partnering with a guide dog over using the cane, but at the same time each has pros and cons. I am working with my first guide dog, Sunny! We have been together for over two years, and I will partner with guide dogs for the rest of my life. It is all about what works best for you, there are no right or wrong choices. For me personally, the positives of guide dog partnership outweigh the negatives.
Kolby

## Post 104 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 31-Jul-2010 10:55:55

I agree. I want to at least attempt a guide dog partnership, since even if I were to discover it wasn't right for me, whatever the reason, if I didn't I might regret it the rest of my life. Although about a month back I did have a rather bizarre dream in which I had a guide dog. I don't know which school I got her from (I do recall it being a female), and one evening I decided that I was going to walk over to Idaho Joe's for dinner. Well I got to the restaurant and placed my order, had dinner and went up to the counter to pay only to discover that I'd forgotten my wallet at home. So I was on the point of walking home to grab my wallet, walk back to Idaho Joe's and pay for my meal when some elderly gentleman came up to me and decided he was going to pay my way. I seem to recall appreciating this, but from then on anytime I left the house with my guide dog she automatically tried to seek out that nice man regardless of where I actually needed to go.

## Post 105 by Marissapc2010 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Saturday, 31-Jul-2010 16:55:24

Lol. that's a funny dream. I drempt about getting a guidedog a few times before I got mine to.

## Post 106 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Saturday, 31-Jul-2010 21:20:56

Yeah. Needless to say I don't think that particular partnership would have worked out. I don't even remember for sure what breed she was but I seem to recall either a Lab or a Golden Retriever, maybe even a cross.

## Post 107 by Shepherdwolf (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Monday, 09-Aug-2010 18:47:00

I think that, for me at least, the choice is cane all the way. A dog would, as a previous poster said, take a great deal of my own work out of travel...making it dependency of a different type, technically. I've watched guide dog users get places, and I have been frankly amazed at the things they miss...things which, when their dog leads them astray, would have helped them find their way. Mind you, I had very good teaching with a cane from a young age, and that's not true for all. I do agree it's a matter of personal choice, so I won't put down anyone who uses a guide dog, not by any means; I just don't think it's for me, and quite honestly feel that they are, on the whole, fairly overrated.
I think SwissGriff has a point, if I'm honest. I want to be dealt with for who I am, not for what I represent with whatever mobility aids I might have. You can't fold a dog away and put it down on the bench next to you underneath a knapsack, and you will have trouble packing yourself onto a congested train or bus with an animal trying to navigate a sea of legs. Sighted people will notice the dog more than the cane almost purely because it is bigger and because it is a living being, one with whom most humans will readily identify. This isn't our fault, but I don't want to be recognized for my dog...my cane either, but I'm resigned to the fact that sometimes I'll get it whether I want it or not.
I also agree that the idea of service animals having all sorts of rights is definitely a touchy one. The grand majority of guide dog users do not absolutely require a dog in order to travel; most own a cane, even if it's buried in their closet somewhere, and if there's a place where pet dogs are absolutely unwelcome, I think that guide dogs for the blind, at least, might very well be labelled similarly. If you want to fly on an airplane, your guide dog can stay in the cabin with other passengers, yet those self-same other passengers could not bring a pet dog, even a perfectly well-behaved one, in the cabin with you. I daresay a guide dog user requires proficient cane skills in any case, on the chance that their dog can't work or cannot be with them for one reason or other; thus, on planes and in certain "no dogs" scenarios, a cane should be more than sufficient. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

## Post 108 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Monday, 09-Aug-2010 21:17:33

Nobody's saying it isn't. But that's just how life works sometimes.

## Post 109 by Shepherdwolf (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Monday, 09-Aug-2010 22:13:34

I don't think that's good enough. In the late 1800s, blacks were segregated, abused and such, but how do you think they felt if a white person said "that's just how life is sometimes"? It's the widespread embrace of that attitude which allows bad behaviour to keep its chokehold.

## Post 110 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Tuesday, 10-Aug-2010 9:57:04

I'm not saying it's right. That's just how things seem to work. I'm in no way saying I agree with it but that's what I've observed. People are often more comfortable talking with a blind person guided by a dog than they are with one using a cane. And we're probably never going to entirely eliminate this philosophy though we may certainly make a valiant effort.

## Post 111 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Tuesday, 10-Aug-2010 10:16:54

I agree with shepherdwolf...it's a damn shame that that's the case. I'm a person, and deserve to be treated like everyone else.

## Post 112 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Tuesday, 10-Aug-2010 12:05:31

Oh I'm not arguing that point. I was merely making an observation that when it comes to blind folks with canes versus those with guide dogs, the vast majority of sighted folks are more comfortable talking to the dog user. Even when they do talk to you you can sometimes tell that they wished you had a dog or wondered why you didn't. As for me I want to be absolutely sure I can care for him or her financially before I make that step.

## Post 113 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Tuesday, 10-Aug-2010 13:00:15

sure people talk to the person with a dog more easily; I'm not denying it. I'm simply saying that there's something majorly wrong with that picture, as people rarely think outside of the box.

## Post 114 by Shepherdwolf (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Tuesday, 10-Aug-2010 14:38:52

What we ought to do, since most of us are agreeing it's a problem, is work to stop it.
It's not like segregation by colour, where most people ultimately knew it was wrong...it's a bit deeper than that...but I think most self-respecting sighted people still ought to know better. The fact is that a combination of good guide-dog PR, lazy blind people and a minority vs. majority uphill struggle has gone and made this discrimination too concrete for its own good. We're never going to convince everyone, but if we - people individually, I mean, who feel this way - try to enlighten the sighted who embody the mindset we wish to destroy...well, we can dare to hope, right? It's a hell of a lot better than just rolling over and accepting that sighted people are going to do it whichever way they want, no matter how unfair it is to the cane users of the world.
Personally, I'm sick and tired of the "Why don't you have a dog?" question. It's almost as if, by a certain age, you have to have one. I'll be damned if I have to hear that everywhere I go. I'm not angry of it, I'm just weary of it. It allows some guide-dog users - there are few of these, but they do exist - to feel they're in the right, it forces some blind people who don't really know their way to believe that a guide dog is best for them when it very likely isn't, and it reinforces the pity lavished upon the cane user because the majority don't realize that canes are, part for part, more dependable - and thus, in one argument at least, more safe - than dogs. People automatically assume that a living creature is better for your safety than a stick in your hand, when ultimately it will depend on the person as to whether that's true or not; if you're a bad cane user, you're not deserving of a dog in any case...but if you're a really excellent cane user, there are some things a cane will tell you that a dog will not only not inform you of, but which a dog will probably have you outright miss instead. It's an argument of skill vs. trust...and I'm not saying that working a guide dog doesn't take any skill because it certainly does, but when you're moving along with a dog at high speed, you're mostly giving yourself over to the control of a creature whose primary urges are to pee on fire hydrants, bark at others of its kind - or sniff their butts - eat whatever they can scrounge or chase felines. I just want the prejudice, however unintentional, to stop, and goodness knows there's enough reason for it to do so.

## Post 115 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Tuesday, 10-Aug-2010 15:31:22

amen!! thank you.

## Post 116 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Wednesday, 11-Aug-2010 8:56:29

I've occasionally gotten the why don't I have a dog question but not often.

## Post 117 by Marissapc2010 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 11-Aug-2010 11:54:56

I'm not saying its right, but its deffenetly true.
So many more people have approached me, and I've gotten a hell of a lot more respect from people now with my dog. I don't get any more of the what does she want crap, now people ask me straight up, and I love it. I no its not right, not saying it is. Just saying that I've deffenetly noticed its true

## Post 118 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Wednesday, 11-Aug-2010 18:10:38

It's been a long time since I got the "Why don't you get a dog?" question. Would be curious to know how many over 35 or so still get it. I sure did as a teenager and a young twenty-something.
Now this has got me curious though: I wonder if their discomfort with whatever their perception of blindness, in combination with people's love of dogs, may be it?
The scenario I'm about to describe really did happen, even though it has nothing to do with being blind, but this discussion of dogs being favored reminded me of it:
My wife, her sister, and her sister's boyfriend, all of us with our kids went through town to an ice cream place, the sister-in-law and gang having a puppy. We were living downtown, so we were all walking. Every twenty feet or so, someone would cross our path, ask about the puppy (about half-grown I think), and quite literally prostrate themselves in front of it, like natives in front of shrines in a old National Geographic film. There was much wriggling and writhing about on the ground, combined with a sound that was a cross between the cooing of a choked dove and a muffled warble presumably coming from the human participant. I don't know who started it, but until our better halves stopped us, me and the other guy would, when the dog worshipper tried to get the puppy to lick their face, tell them "You know, she just licked her ass!" but the worshippers were quite oblivious either to us saying it, or the kids laughing as a result.
Now if we, as a whole group, couldn't travel more than twenty feet without this amazing spectacle, (the only time I've wanted to videotape something for Youtube), I now think no wonder you all guide dog users have it so rough when it comes to two-legged doggie people keeping their foreflippers off your working companion. And if people are really so incredibly predisposed to publicly prostrate themselves and do goofy things on the sidewalk with no shame, get up, dust themselves off, and walk off as though they'd just been hypnotized, all because of a dog, perhaps it's that attraction for them.

## Post 119 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Thursday, 12-Aug-2010 9:09:43

I agree with Hell's Angel. I'm not saying the positive discrimination towards guide dog users is right but that's definitely how life seems to work more often than not. We might be able to educate some people, certainly, but we're going to have to accept the fact that there are always going to be some people who no matter how you try are going to be more comfortable talking to the dog user versus the cane user.

## Post 120 by Shepherdwolf (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Thursday, 12-Aug-2010 16:00:41

Yeah, that's to be expected. I mean, it's dozens of years later and there are still individuals of all kinds of races who discriminate against others of different ethnicity or religion. It'd just be nice to have perspective shift to where it ought to be, that's all.

## Post 121 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Thursday, 12-Aug-2010 22:10:50

agree with the last post.

## Post 122 by Tara&Rica (thoroughly enjoying the Twilight series right now.) on Sunday, 15-Aug-2010 1:20:00

I used a cane forever and recently graduated with my first guide dog! I absolutely love her and wouldn't live any other way unless I absolutely had too. She has been a great companion for me and she has helped me be more confident in myself and been there for other support as well I just couldn't get from my cane. I know I'm after the paper, but I figured I'd chime in as well.

## Post 123 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Sunday, 15-Aug-2010 17:48:48

And that's exactly what I want to try for. True you don't have to feed or water the cane but nor can you take it out for a play session after a long day's work and it would be rather uncomfortable, not to mention awkward, to cuddle up to it on the floor the way you could with a guide dog. And I've heard many a guide dog user describe walking with their dog almost as what it might feel like to fly.

## Post 124 by Shepherdwolf (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Monday, 16-Aug-2010 11:54:52

I can't state this as fact, so don't get yourself twisted up, folks...but I've often surmised that this supposed feeling of freedom is psychosomatic. It is, by my way of wondering at times, making you feel more free either because you expect it to do so (due to what you've been told or what you've read) or simply because you want it to (self-willed optimism and a renewed sense of confidence). This makes the feeling no less real, but it puts the focus far more on you than on the dog. It also suggests that if people marketed canes the same way they market dogs, cane users might get the same feeling.
Incidentally, when I first learned to use a cane and stopped requiring the assistance of others, I definitely felt like I could fly. I don't need to fly any higher, thus my personal decision never to get a dog. I am more than independent enough at this stage of my life, so I daresay that while what works for one won't necessarily work for all, I think my idea of actually increased freedom being psychosomatic needs to be considered. It can't be outright proven and it can't be outright disproven either...it's just something to chew on a little, I suppose.

## Post 125 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Monday, 16-Aug-2010 12:28:03

Well that's the whole point isn't it? It might not work for some people but there are plenty of folks for whom it does.

## Post 126 by little foot (Zone BBS is my Life) on Monday, 23-Aug-2010 20:50:57

This is little foot and I will give my reasons why I do not use a guide dog.
First of all they are a lot of responsibility and I do not need a anemal to take care of.
I already have a daughter that I care for and that is good for me.
Second of all I do not like cleaning poop from the ground in a public place grose.
Third of all you need to make shure that the dog has enough food and I bet it costs a hole lot of money.
Fourth of all is because the vet costs a lot of money and I will not want to pay for a dogs vet visets not fun.
Those are my reasons why I do not want a guide dog.
Hope this helps.

## Post 127 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Monday, 23-Aug-2010 22:39:40

Well as I said, to each their own. I just hapen to know that if I don't at least try I'll most likely regret it my entire life. As for the vet bills most vets will provide care at reduced cost for service animals from what I've heard. Yes, guide dogs are a lot of responsibility but it's like marriage in that it's a two-way street. You have to give a little in order to get back.

## Post 128 by jen91_09 (777) on Saturday, 23-Oct-2010 19:16:18

wow! This topic was really popular! :D I ended up getting an A on that paper :) (I think it was due in like april or something last year... lol)My teacher really loved it. This has been interesting reading all of your responces. Thanks guys! :) Keep em coming if you like lol

## Post 129 by Eleni21 (I have proven to myself and the world that I need mental help) on Saturday, 23-Oct-2010 19:47:16

I want a gps! I think that and a talking bar code scanner will give me the freedom that I desire, more so than a dog because dogs can't read, or if they can, they can't talk and they certainly can't take you to exactly where you want to go if it's your first time and you have no clue how to get there yourself. I know someone who's willing to sell his ID Mate Omni for a ridiculously cheap price when compared with the Summet and still a very good one when compared with the refurbished Omnies being sold at the manufacturer's site. And I've also got my eye on the Kapten gps, but would seriously like to hear a demo of it before I decide to part with that kind of money. If I really wanted to go all out, I'd get the Kapten and the MobilEyes Basic Portable Reading Machine.
http://www.maxiaids.com/store/prodView.asp?idproduct=8863&idstore=6&product=MobilEyes-Basic-Portable-Reading-Machine-for-the-Blind-and-Low-Vision
Now that's freedom! It's also so far over my budget that it's laughable.

## Post 130 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 15-Nov-2010 12:58:31

shepherd, you try to come across as objective but your bias shows. for over 30 years i was, if i say so myself, an excellent cane traveler. then, this past august, i graduated with a beautiful black lab named sarabelle, or sara to her friends. yes, we do miss things with a dog. most of them, i'm fine not dealing with thanks so very much. as for the feeling of freedom being psychosomatic, so what? i have no idea if it is or is not. My husband is also an excellent cane user. I get places far faster than does he. We are having massive road construction in our area. as i zoom between the piles of dirt and debris, he's still back at the starting gate. as for people with guide dogs getting too much attention think of this. dogs make people happy. often we smile and are happier becaus their good will spills on to us. when using a cane, if i was concentrating, i was told that i appeared unapproachable or grim. perhaps this plays in to the difference?

## Post 131 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Thursday, 18-Nov-2010 20:38:59

Good points there.

## Post 132 by LeoGuardian (You mean there is something outside of this room with my computer in it?) on Thursday, 18-Nov-2010 21:18:19

Hmm good point on the expression. I look that way when programming and stuff also, I'm sure you're right.
Also people just love love love dogs. My sister in law is now a dog handler: she has a St. Bernard which is a mascot, meaning it has a job, it goes to work at the resort with her every day. And everyone wants to pet it,put a French fry up its nose, all sorts of things. I bet people think: well-trained but approachable because it's not a police or drug sniffing dog.

## Post 133 by CrystalSapphire (Uzuri uongo ndani) on Friday, 19-Nov-2010 9:29:00

Ok after working with a dog for a day at the seeing eye I've decided to get a dog. I'm a very good cane user, but I get very nervous with certain things like street crossings..
When I was with the dog I was able to travel more comfortable, and comfidently. I've decided to get a dog, but it will still be a year away.
I'll still use my cane from time to time, because I don't want to loose that skill. :)

## Post 134 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Friday, 26-Nov-2010 14:28:42

Yeah, there's bound to be instances where a cane or a sighted guide might still be more practical than a dog. You wouldn't want to take a guide dog to a loud concert let's say, so you'd be better off with a cane or a sighted guide. And I could be mistaken about this but when you're first learning the ropes at home with your new dog and you had to walk a rote you'd done lots of times with a cane, you might still need to take the cane out at certain points if you had to find, let's say the third driveway on the right and you needed toshow the dog where to go since after all they will learn routes as well as you if they're taken that way often enough. THe tricky part might be taking a route that's very similar to but deviates from the normal one since the dog might expect you to go to the same place. As for me, it's also going to be at least another year before I get a dog since A. I want to try and save up a little money so I'll be more able to care for him/her and B. I'm hoping to find at least part-time employment (though with the understanding that it may graduate to full-time down the road). Thankfully my wife is extremely supportive and I know she'll do the best she can to help me get there. Yeah she's a bit protective of me being sighted but she still lets me do things for myself. Hell, I wouldn't have married her otherwise.

## Post 135 by tallin32 (Veteran Zoner) on Friday, 26-Nov-2010 16:50:14

I keep waffling on the cane vs. dog question, actually. Some replies to recent posts, and a few questions if people have answers for them.
Post #130 said:

## Post 136 by changedheart421 (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Saturday, 27-Nov-2010 16:29:06

I am definitely a guide user. I just got my first one last May and though it is a huge responsibility I would never trade it. I hated the cane sort of and always felt so auqward when using it. To me having a dog was the wisest move I ever made. I can finally be as independent as i always dreamed and when traveling it feels so good to have my dog by my side.

## Post 137 by BryanP22 (Novice theriminist) on Sunday, 28-Nov-2010 18:38:55

I'm the same way. I particularly hate having to use the cane on grass or while shorelining fences since more often than not they hamper you, unless of course you'e lucky enough to own one of those big flat roller tips. Only real problem there is that, for me at least, they make the cane unnecessarily heavy and, more to the point, harder to put in my holster when I'm not using it. You have to put it in upside-down. It was rather annoying when I'd come in after a long walk aving had to navigate around mud. Then I'd reac for the cane and get mud on my hand if I happened to touch the tip while I was grabbing it. Ah well, suppose it's better than dog do... But rambling aside that's one reason why I hope the guide dog thing works out for me.

## Post 138 by Songbird83 (the Zone BBS remains forever my home page) on Monday, 29-Nov-2010 20:52:51

Wow what a lot to read. I should've been on here when this thread was created. Anyway, I love all 3 of my dogs. One of them I worked for almost 9 years, the other had health issues, so I only worked her for a year, and now I've got this new lab of mine who I love to death. For people who have never had a dog guide. or have even opened up their mind to wonder, what would it be like to do this, it's just something that is hard for people to understand. I was talking to my friend and he was saying all these negative things about dogs. Now I'm not putting anyone down on this board who doesn't want a dog, I'm just saying, for someone getting their first dog, if they want to do it, is an amazing experience. Just to walk with the dog, to bond with it, to trust it and become a team is just incredible. And I would never turn back. I didn't get as much help from people when I had my cane, I usually had to be the one to ask for help, and ever since I got my first dog back in 2001, people usually come up to me when I'm lost. And if you get lost, you're never lost alone, which I like, because I don't panic as much if I were lost with just my cane. Now that there are gps's and cell phones, it would be easy to have someone find you if you know of someone to call on. Also having a dog, makes you feel more independent about traveling. I have a hearing problem, and when I was with my cane, I would be a little scared to cross the street, because I was afraid I'd veer, or go at the wrong time. But people wouldn't hit me and the dog, or we'd have a court case on our hands. Anyway, I'm saying that cane or dog, it's up to the person, but just to experience it, is amazing. And if you love your dog enough, you'd pick up after it, weather it'd be poop or puke, and take it to the vet and groom it and clean it's ears and brush its teeth. It's kind of like having a kid, so if you start at 18, you'll kind of be prepared for taking care of a child in a way. It's not the same, but similar since you have responsibility that you didn't have before. I guess just because I'm an animal lover, I just couldn't see myself with a robot. I guess because I like to be close to whoever is guiding me. A robot can't hug you when your sad, or shows that, even if they do or don't understand what's going on, that they're there for you all the time. Dogs have unconditional love, and that's what's another thing that's so wonderful about them. Yeah sometimes it's stressful having a dog with vet bills and if the dog makes mistakes sometimes, but it's really worth it, to me at least.
And about support groups, I run a guide dog conference on the phone, or you can call on skype. If anyone is interested, you can write me a message if you want to join. Anyone from any guide dog school is welcome, and if you don't have a dog and want to learn about things or listen to stories, you're more than welcome to join us to. It's a great group of people, and it's kind of like having a second family. Just because we're close with each other. Anyway, I think I've talked enough. I hope I didn't afend anyone with this post, and might open some eyes on some of the positive things about owning a dog.