# blindy conduct and its impact

Category: Let's talk

## Post 1 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 9:45:26

So I was scanning through my facebook, and came across an article called
seven things we wish restaurants knew about serving blind people. It was all
about how blind people, apparently, feel excluded when at a restaurant, and
included such gems as, don't ask a sighted person what the blind person wants.
This got me thinking. I used to have this happen a lot. I used to have servers
who would ask my parents, or dates, or sister, what I was going to be having. It
never happens anymore. So I started wondering why exactly that was. Was I
doing something different?
So, I started to think back, and I realized that I had changed something. I
used to never engage with the wait staff. When they came to take the orders,
I'd look straight ahead, not saying anything until it was my turn, never asking
questions, never talking to the server, and all the time my companion would get
asked what I was having. But I don't do that anymore. Now, I engage, I greet
the server, by name if possible. I ask questions, make jokes, make comments,
ask their opinion. I look up at them, talk to them. And it never happens now. I
can't remember the last time it happened.
The same thing is true of other interactions. I used to get treated childishly by
all kinds of service people. People at the front desk in a hotel, bartenders, taxi
drivers, so on and so forth. I used to be very timid in my encounters with them,
and I'd get treated in the stereotypical way we all complain about. But now I
don't. Now I get treated like anyone else, unless they're a stranger who
approaches me on the street oddly enough.
So, does anyone else have this kind of change? How do you interact with
servers and the like? Are you timid, or do you exude confidence? What are your
thoughts? Am I simply making a correlation here? Any opinions are welcome.

## Post 2 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 10:34:29

I agree. You've made the change, so now you are receiving feedback.
What else can a server do?

## Post 3 by DevilishAnthony (Just go on and agree with me. You know you want to.) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 11:43:41

Good point. I've also found that if I travel with a sighted person who is naturally overbearing and wants to overshadow me, I don't get taken nearly as seriously. It's not as easy, but now that I take a cab or the paratransit van and travel by myself, people do talk to me more. I have the added difficulty of not being able to hear all that well, though the cochlear is beginning to help with that somewhat, and a really bad sense of direction. I used to have decent mobility, so I'm not sure what's happened there. The more I read, the more I wonder if I have Nauries disease, so I'm about to go for a genetics test, for piece of mind, if nothing else.
From what I've read, people effected by it do eventually have some cognative issues. They're born blind, and a lot of them lose their hearing over time and have other problems, such as reproductive or circulation issues. well, I have all of this, so it makes me wonder. But back to your point, I do find that if I can interact with the people around me, it tends to put them more at ease. I know this, so I'm making more of an effort to do it, but my self confidence really needs some work, so it's kind of difficult.

## Post 4 by Smiling Sunshine (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 13:32:59

I agree that if we take the lead in our interactions, there is definitely a difference in how we're treated.
I've always been an outgoing person so I've never had a problem with engaging others. One situation where I do find it difficult is in fastfood places that tend to be loud. It's a bit difficult to tell when they're speaking to me. For example, take Subway, The counter is taller than I am and there may be more than one person working on my sandwich. Sometimes I feel like an idiot asking if people are talking to me but if they don't know what the cane is for, then who's the idiot, really? lol
Good observation.

## Post 5 by DevilishAnthony (Just go on and agree with me. You know you want to.) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 13:58:43

Yes, loud places are the absolute worst for me.

## Post 6 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 14:35:14

Subways and such are hard. I've noticed seeing people sort of watch the people, and it is more of a pointing , then a speaking and a nodding of the head and saying yes or no.
We can't do that, so if you can avoid it, just go to were you pay and tell that person exactly what you want and what you want on it.
That ones not easy. I don't do them alone if I can help it.
If I can't I do what I suggest, or put my hand on top and tell them to touch it when they are talking to me.
Laughing.

## Post 7 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 14:59:24

Yeah, subway is hard. I don't go to those kinds of places on my own if I can
help it.

## Post 8 by Remy (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 15:55:39

Cody being timid. I just … can’t picture it. Anyway this is an interesting observation. I have partial sight, but I find this happens to me sometimes even now. But I do find it happens a lot less when I am looking up, smiling and engaging with my server or whoever else it might be. These days if I encounter someone asking my wife something when they should ask me, I will (usually) point out that I am standing right here. Usually I’ll make it humerous as to not make the person uncomfortable, and not make myself sound like a douche. I do find it happens far less these days than it used to. It actually makes my wife so mad when it does happen though. She’s fully sighted.
I agree with loud places. They are the bane of my existence. Subway can be a bit confusing too when it’s busy. Usually if I am uncertain, I just ask nicely “are you talking to me?” I always have my cane in plain sight, and I have always been asked at each station what I would like. I did have a lady insist I have coke when I very clearly and articulately ordered a root beer. That was annoying. I go to subway a lot, usually at least once every couple of weeks. I have encountered very few problems personally.

## Post 9 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 17:59:45

That rarely happens to me anymore. The last time was actually just the other day, but that's because I was letting my friend pick interesting beers for me to try and the bartender knew it. I've also noticed that if I walk like I know where I'm going, I get grabbed much less.

## Post 10 by johndy (I just keep on posting!) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 18:51:23

I think with me it’s a combination of things. When I’m with other people and I know the server is present, I tend to look in their general direction as they go from one person to another, trying to look up at them so they notice I’m here and want service eventually. Usually they’ll say: “Okay, sir?” And usually I’ll know when they’re talking to me. If I’m with other people and I’m not quite sure if I’m supposed to go next, sometimes someone in my group will say: “John?” And I’ll just speak up and order what I want. Otherwise, I have the tendency to want to treat myself to a good dinner. This was particularly so when I lived in Manhattan, and it was again so when I was in Minneapolis for a week. When you’re alone at a table, the servers have to speak to you whether they’re comfortable with you or not. I usually get the respect owed to the Imperial presence (smile), largely because I think I present myself reasonably well. I think that if you’re matter-of-fact, most times people will be matter-of-fact with you.

## Post 11 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 19:36:47

Just like Cody, it used to happen to me and for the same reasons. I didn't really make direct eye contact and I was sort of passive. I acted like a child so I was treated like one. What do ya know!

## Post 12 by Imprecator (The Zone's Spelling Nazi) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 21:12:35

I usually have the person I'm with tap me on the shoulder when it's my turn to order. Being hard of hearing also I have them pass the microphone for my fm system to the server so I can tell where they are and talk to them.

## Post 13 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 21:16:36

Well that's understandable.

## Post 14 by rdfreak (THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE-BLUE KANGA-KICKIN AUSIE) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 23:39:34

I could have written this myself Cody; I was the same. I use to be a very shi person and even when I still lived with my parents and went out with them, they use to automatically order for me because I was too shy to even engage in conversation, (though it is fair to ass I did have social anxiety so it was hard for me in that respect also), but as I got a little older and got over the anxiety, I engaged with waiters and everyone how you describe and I never had a problem since.
Same goes for everything else. I definitely feel more included that I ever had before.

## Post 15 by rdfreak (THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE-BLUE KANGA-KICKIN AUSIE) on Tuesday, 26-Jul-2016 23:41:06

Oh I go to subways; I don't let anything stop me from what I desire to eat, but those counters and Mcdonalds and hungry Jacks (your Burger King) do have such wide counters - it's tricky as. :(

## Post 16 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 1:52:56

Regarding Subway, I find that a simple and polite "Are you talking to me?" cures any problems I may otherwise have. The staff respond well to it, and don't think I'm being rude for not responding to them.
Like many here though, I didn't used to exude confidence at all. In fact, I was timid, standoffish and didn't have a friendly look about me. So yes, I agree 100% that if you don't look easily approachable, you will be treated as if you don't exist. (Hate to put it that way, but it's really true).

## Post 17 by VioletBlue (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 5:07:47

Oh, I know that Forereel and Domestic Goddess exude that confidence! *laugh* I envy you.
I wouldn't say I am confident, exactly; I'm very much an introvert, and have a bit of social anxiety. I have always tended to let whoever I'm with take the lead and speak for me. My mother always answered for me, growing up, not instilling much confidence in speaking for myself--she does it, to this day!--and I was just comfortable with that pattern, but it's not a great way to go through your whole life as an adult. That's lessened somewhat as I've gotten older, though, and I make more of an effort to assert myself. I think I've always tried to look up and in the direction of a server when eating out, but still they often ask the other person what I want! Gah!
As DG said, some of this just happens when you're not a tall person. I'm 4'10, so yeah, often the top of the counter is on the level with my nose! LOL I guess they equate this with childlike, young, whatever. It's annoying! Now, if the person I'm with is asked what I would like, I just answer instead, not making a scene about it, not sounding as peeved as I may actually be.

## Post 18 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 8:54:36

so here's my question, kiond of a two part question. First, do those of us who
don't feel confident think that it should just be something you have to fake?
Like, is this just part of being a blind person, that you have to bite back your
shyness and do it? And second, do you think younger blind people, like children,
should be taught this? Do you think it should be one of those hard lessons every
child has to learn? Like a mobility instructor should sit them down and be like,
"Billy, here's the skinny. You have to always seem like you're doing exactly what
you meant to do, or you're never going to get taken seriously. Even if you're
utterly lost, you have to look like you're in your own living room, or else people
are going to treat you like a child for the rest of your life."
I tend to think that should be something we're taught.

## Post 19 by Smiling Sunshine (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 11:56:00

As for question 1, I'm not sure. Generally, I don't like having to pretend to be something or some way I'm not, in other words, fake it to make it. Apparently though, that's what ya gotta do. I think that applies to far more areas in our lives than just compensating for our blindness.
Regarding question two, definitely. I can't say for sure that I wasn't told this as a young person. I don't remember a specific conversation but knowing the mobility instructors I had growing up, this sounds like something they would have instilled in me.
I used to, and still do, hate hate hate soliciting assistance. My O&M instructor from 7th to 9th grade would purposefully plan lessons where I would have to do so. I'm pretty sure that this is where my confidence, or boldness at any rate, came into being.

## Post 20 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 12:02:37

Cody I was once taught that but then I would get the whole "stop acting so proud" speech.. This left me feeling quite conflicted though I resolved to balance the two principles depending on the situation.

## Post 21 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 12:19:57

My answers are same as domestics.
I think also maybe because I once could see may have or make a difference.
Third, my mobility lessons included such things as shopping, going out to eat and whatever.
I figure in Subway, or a setup like that, I'm here to pay my money, so if you want some of it, you'll need to help me, so you can get it.
Plus I'm hungry, so if I'm going to eat, I better figure out how to get my food.
Laughing.
As a child, we'd go out to eat all the time, and my mom or dad wouldn't order for me, they say, "tell them what you want."
I like to go out now, so if alone, or with others, I need to put myself out there.

## Post 22 by DevilishAnthony (Just go on and agree with me. You know you want to.) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 13:24:19

stepping out of the comfort zone might be hard when you're a kid, but it's much worse when you're an adult. Yes, I think confidence is something that should be encouraged at a young age. I think that myself and most of the people that I grew up around would have done much better had we been encouraged, rather than beaten down, our ideas shattered and the adults geering at us for not being able to do something, but never really trying to give us the tools with which to do it. It's really hard to be confident when the adults are laughing at you and telling you that not only will you fail, but that you'll never learn and that when you grow up, society will stick you in to a sheltered workshop and forget about you. I think things are probably a bit better now. I wouldn't wish Braille Jail hell on anyone. It's true that I learned more than my brothers in their small hometown public school did, as far as accademics go, but the cost was pretty great.

## Post 23 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 15:08:14

Sadly Anthony, things are not all that much better but they are getting there.

## Post 24 by DevilishAnthony (Just go on and agree with me. You know you want to.) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 15:12:17

At least now, there's the internet, and most blind students can get access to a computer with a screenreader. We can read and research things much easier now. There's not such a sense of being alone. Sure, I think we all feel misunderstood at times, but it's pretty easy to find and read stories from others who have faced similar situations.

## Post 25 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 17:48:39

I never felt alone, because most of my world is and was seeing people, but I have learned a pile here on the Zone about how other blind peoples lives are.
I have learned the things, like why servers didn't speak to them directly just here.
I knew it happened, but not exactly why.
Many things I now understand and have had to deal with some myself too.

## Post 26 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 19:23:21

It's tough I know, but such things as projecting confidance should be taught early on.

## Post 27 by Jack Off Jill (why the hell am I posting in the first place?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 19:36:05

oh man, I used to be extremely shy. I was just so timid to talk, everytime I was with others at a restaurant, I'd be on the phone and who ever I was with would order for me. I hated talking to help. then I got out on my own and realized how stupid I was being. I now look up, greet and order for myself.
I plan to teach my daughter how to do independent things such as these, even though she is a sighted baby. I feel we should build our children's confidence for them, not to shun them from learning proper lessons as an adult.

## Post 28 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 19:39:20

Well said indeed!

## Post 29 by johndy (I just keep on posting!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 19:55:15

Very interesting questions, such that I’m not altogether sure I can do them justice. As to the first, I’m not sure how much I fake and how much I actually naturally exude. Where do you draw the line? Because in some ways I think I’ve always exuded confidence, but there are other arenas where I fell far short. In mobility and most other blindness skills, I’ve been told that I rock. I’m not overly hesitant, and when I wanna do something, I do it. I think I get a lot of that from my mother. She’s always been of the mindset that she doesn’t like whiners or complainers, and that if she can do something herself, she’d just as soon do it than not. I have to say that I cringe every time I hear another blind person use their blindness as an excuse for not doing something, or for failing to excel at something they should be able to do. I think that a lot of my predispositions toward being as independent as I could may actually be a genetic trait, though who can say? I come from a rather long line of somewhat crusty people, so maybe that’s the basis of some of my opinions. But probably the one area I’ve started faking, rather late in life, is in the arena of meeting people for relationship possibilities. That’s the area of my life in which I never really possessed all that much confidence, because quite honestly I never really considered myself all that attractive. Not trying to bitch or complain; it’s just something that’s stayed with me since the time I developed that raging case of acne I had for many years starting at the age of twelve. That, and the fact that it went without saying that my eyes were far from my greatest asset. I now have a perfectly acceptable blue prosthetic in place of the mal-formed real eye I had for the first 48 years of my life, and I don’t have the acne anymore, but there are residues in my personality that remain all these years on from that time in my life. The fact remains that I was born with only one eye, and we never did very much in the way of prosthetics for that socket, such that it looks unbalanced in proportion to the socket that contained my real eye. I think my lack of confidence in the looks department made me more standoffish than I needed to be, and I never really have been able to accept compliments from people where my looks were concerned. These days, though, I’ve pretty much decided to try to shunt as mmuch of that baggage as I can into the past where it rightfully belongs. I can accept not being a bombshell because I find it matters less now to me than it did previously. Since it doesn’t matter as much as it once did, I can simply accept the reality that I’m average, but so are probably most people. In other words, the pressure is off, maybe because I believe that once you’ve reached a certain age in your life, it may be more difficult to start a new relationship than it once was when you were in your teens or twenties. Now, I can be cool and interesting without all that worry. Except that I hate that it took this long to figure it out, because I think my lack of confidence when I was younger made me miss out on some really interesting possibilities.
As to the second part of your question, I think the last mobility instructor I ever had in my life tried to teach me some of those lessons. I think that because of the things he taught me, I feel as confident as I do in certain areas. But I think the lessons were probably very subtle, because I’m not really altogether sure I remember most of them now. But I like the idea of finding a way to give a young blind kid confidence lessons, because there are so many ways in which we learn differently from the sighted. A lot of it is hands-on. And if it’s not done right, or in time, or whatever, a kid will probably be somewhat stunted in some key aspects of life. I’d start in early adolescence, say, around thirteen to fifteen, because these are pretty crucial years for learning some social stuff that a lot of people probably don’t really know how to teach even a sighted young one, much less a blind one. My father always tried to instill confidence in me by saying: “Confidence! Confidence!” But it’s one thing to try to drum that word into someone, whereas it’s a completely different kettle of fish to actually teach it. The way I might do it is to say: “We’re all human beings. If you think the person standing next to you is better than you are because you think they’re better-looking, richer, more accomplished or whatever, remember that in many, many ways they’re just as fallible as you’ll ever be. You don’t think they ever get bad breath? That they don’t ever get moody or show a side of themselves that isn’t always as nice as they should be? Hell, they may be smarter than you in some areas, but not so smart in others. And grab this, and it may sound crude or rough. But remember that they have to wipe themselves when they shit just like you do. Picture that when you think someone else is better than you.” See, a lot of this stuff had to come after years and years of learning. Some of it was pretty painful learning to boot. But that’s something I’d like to impart to younger people whether they’re blind or not, so maybe they won’t have to work as hard at some things the way some of us may have had to do.

## Post 30 by VioletBlue (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 19:56:54

Oh yes, I think kids, blind or sighted, should be taught to be confident in interacting with others. I notice that kids are very bold, these days. *smile* Maybe that's not new, but I'm always amazed, listening to them, and thinking that I'd never have had the nerve to just speak out like that to a stranger when I was that age.
Yes, being encouraged as a child to be silent and not bother people has made it tougher to ask for help, now, but when it has to be done, I manage, of course. I think it's easier for me if someone else is with me, maybe counting on me to figure out where we're going, for example, another blind friend who isn't great at O&M stuff, or a child. I'd have no problem speaking up and doing what I need to in that circumstance.
Sure, much of life involves just pretending to know what you're doing! That's how I just push through much of the anxiety difficulties, too.

## Post 31 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 20:34:52

I think faking it till you make it actually does work wonders. At least it has for me because eventually, when you fake it till you make it, and hear enough times from people that you should be confident, you eventually start to believe that you are.
As for teaching kids early on, hell yes I think we should do so. In fact, I was talking with someone pretty recently about how I think everyone needs a mentor who they could learn from and grow from throughout life--I think it would greatly stretch one's skills all around.

## Post 32 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 20:42:46

Wow Chelsey you read my mind! I was just going to say that.

## Post 33 by Jack Off Jill (why the hell am I posting in the first place?) on Wednesday, 27-Jul-2016 22:05:33

haha I'm like that too violet blue. I'm confident alone, can get myself to stop being chicken. but when someone else depends on me, I don't hesitate.

## Post 34 by Pasco (my ISP would be out of business if it wasn't for this haven I live at) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2016 3:33:20

I think sighted people who are a bit shy have less trouble with servers because eye contact still happens. But confidence is a good trait for blind or sighted. That said, I think one reason servers are better than they used to be is cultural. Younger people, which are what most servers are, are far more open to interacting with blind people than older people tend to be. Blind people are more out and about than they used to be. Disability in general is much more a part of the national conversation than it used to be. Plus I've noticed in general that younger people are far more open to all the differences in people. Less ethnically biased, less sexually biased, and more open to interaction with disabled people. So both things are positive, being more competent and confident oneself, and society, at least younger people, are more open.

## Post 35 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2016 12:01:15

Generally speaking I'd agree but there are exceptions to every rule.

## Post 36 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2016 12:07:39

I never had problems with servers in this area, so on this specific thing I'd disagree that younger people are better at it.
If you engage a server, she or he has to engage with you. It is the job and how they get the tips.

## Post 37 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2016 20:13:26

I've actually had a lot of positive experiences with older people. Some of them are long past the point of trying to prove anything to anyone. They know that nobody's perfect, and my blindness just doesn't bother them the way it bothered some of the kids I went to school with.

## Post 38 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2016 20:15:59

That's why I said there are exceptions to every rule.

## Post 39 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Thursday, 28-Jul-2016 22:20:32

you can't teach someone self confidence. maybe I was a brat.
as a teenager, I wouldn't have listened to some adult teacher person tell me what I needed to do to be self confident. well they would have thought I was paying attention but I was on another planet. it wasn't until I got to college and realized that people like me who talked in teeny tiny little quiet voices didn't get the good stuff. Maybe there just might possibly be something to this confidence stuff. we can be taught to cook, read braille, sew, or program a computer. confidence is something that has to be developed like our muscles. the only way that happens is if we get out there and experience life.
if I make a fool out of myself, then I might have saved a marriage. you know I've heard the lament "I want out. we just don't have anything to talk about anymore." so, one partner sees me make an ass out of myself. he/she goes home, they have a great conversation at their dinner table discussing me. voila!!! the marriage lasts another day.

## Post 40 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 0:14:34

Hmm, interesting topic. I think you have something here. I used to get a lot of this when I was younger. I think part of it had to do with age. The other part did have to do with my self-confidence, which I didn't really come into until my mid-twenties. People did try to teach it to me over the years, so I can't say it wasn't that I was poorly taught. It just took me finally living out on my own, including outside of the semi-protected environment of a college dorm, for that confidence to really become mine, not just what other people had tried to teach me. It was about learning to carry myself confidently, about learning the line between assertive and aggressive, and a bunch of other things. Sometimes, even as a blind person myself, it's hard not to speak or act on behalf of a less confident or competent blind person. I stop myself from doing this, because I won't treat another blind person like that, sometimes even if that's what they'd rather I do. But it gives me a better understanding of why people fell into this trap when I was that shyer, younger person.

## Post 41 by Pasco (my ISP would be out of business if it wasn't for this haven I live at) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 3:26:49

If you are saying there is no cultural component in behavior towards blind people, then perhaps you haven't lived long enough to see it manifest. There really has been a shift since when I was a young adult. I do see the currently younger generation behaving much more openly on a number of things including disability. This does not refute the importance of confidence. We do live in an evolving culture and to think it has no bearing on service people is not logical. I have personally observed it even if some of you haven't. And, it's a good thing, nothing to argue over.

## Post 42 by DevilishAnthony (Just go on and agree with me. You know you want to.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 3:45:51

Yes, even from the late 70's until now, things are quite different than they were back then.
Turricane has a point as well. No, confidence can't be taught, but kids can be encouraged to take risks and experience new things, rather than being told they'll never manage to succeed anyhow so why try. I think this happened more in the late 80's and very early 90's, but it might just be because that's when I could probably have used the encouragement the most and when I received it the least.
They'd try to get me to do extra caricular activities and the likes, to get out and socialize, but the activities they wanted me to participate in were things I really wasn't interested in. They'd just try to publically shame me if I didn't want to join something like the track team, for example. No one ever tried to explain that it's more than interest in the activity. It's getting out there and experiencing life, interacting with people and yes, building confidence. That's how it's done, after all. Just like a baby learning to walk. It'll stumble and fall a few times before discovering what works and what doesn't.

## Post 43 by forereel (Just posting.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 7:21:21

I understand that service people, and others have problems with the disabled. I will agree on that point.
What I mean, is if you engage a server, she or he will have to engage you.
Maybe this is something I learned. My dad was a friendly type guy, and would engage people generally. If we were in a eating place, he'd ask the server questions, tease them.
If they weren't seeming to be doing the job, as in coming over to see what we wanted, he'd call them over.
"Hey girl, what you doing."
We worked with the public, meaning cleaning offices or yards, and later I did houses of strangers.
So, sure, people want to back off, I just got to the point I don't let them if I need a service from them.
Now, in general, I don't go out of my way anymore just to step up and talk to strangers, but in this situation, yes.
My mom's same as my dad, but she's more on a serious side with servers, because she is just that way. But, she speaks to them.
So, maybe I'm not qualified to post on here, because of being brought up differently.
I'm disabled, and I know how people react to it, so I compensate for them.

## Post 44 by forereel (Just posting.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 7:33:14

You know maybe when you must work with the public, you learn they are sometimes requiring your input.
We worked for a doctor, and I'd be empting the trash in his office. He'd pop in and ask me to tell him a dirty joke or something.
I'm a kid, right? I am not suppose to be telling him dirty jokes. hahaha.
I came up with a few I could get away with.
It taught me doctors weren't the scary people, they were just like me.

## Post 45 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 8:06:02

I don't know if confidence can be taught exactly. But it can certainly be
instilled and cultivated. if you put a young student in a situation where they're
forced to be confident, and do it over and over again, they'll eventually learn to
either be confident, or fake confidence. It would be a miserable time for the
student, but a necessary one I think.
Here's another question. If a blind person shares a story wherein they were
treated badly by a server, or something like that, and another blind person says
"did you try this", do you feel its ok for the first blind person to get upset? I see
this all the time, people tlaking about how they don't want blind people telling
them how to do things, or trying to correct things. to me, if someone has a
better way of doing something, i would hope they'd tell me so that I can do it
too. But I seem to be rather lonely in that club, thoughts?

## Post 46 by DevilishAnthony (Just go on and agree with me. You know you want to.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 9:54:50

depends on how it's worded. If it's constructive, sure, but if they said something like, "well, did you try looking in their general direction or did you just stand there with your head down like a stupid idiot?" I wouldn't be upset necessarily, but I probably wouldn't be too keen on anything else they said during that conversation. If they said, "I try to look right at the person as best I can and I try to smile and be approachable," They're not showing how they'd handle it so much better than me, and they're not implying that decent manners are foreign to me. they're not even criticizing me, for that matter, but they stil get their point across.
sorry, I'm in a hurry, about to walk out the door, so this might not have the best wording, but you'll most likely get my jist.

## Post 47 by Smiling Sunshine (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 9:59:21

Golly, so much to say and so little coffee thus far.
Wayne, your dad sounds awesome! I'llbet he would have been a hoot to go out to eat with.
I agree with others that confidence cannot be tought but rather must be discovered and developed. Perhaps rather than trying to teach confidence, teaching about body language and the perception thereof would be more beneficial. This is going to sound weird but as an avid reader of fiction, I often listen to the descriptions of people in books and wonder how I'd be described.
I'm not sure how well a teen ager is going to take this type of information though. As for me, I would have maintained my sullen "fuck the world" scoul and blown off whatever the teacher was trying to say. However, the adult me has learned that those types of things stick with a person. All that to say, teachers, keep teaching it because one day it will stick. Having said that, the teacher would need to be extremely careful so as not to do the describing in such a way that would be unnecessarily cruel.
My only concern with all of this is for other people like myself who struggle with extreme self-consciousness. Having been quote unquote evaluated on one thing or other for most of my formative years has it's downside. I'm a perfectionist by nature as well as someone who just really wants to blend in and go with the flow. Neither of these character traights works well with blindness. lol Now when I'm all worried about something regarding how I present myself or appear to others, people in my circle are like, "Who cares?" I'm thinking to myself, "Seriously? now it's ok to relax? That's a trick, right?" lol
I hope this has made as much sense outside of my head as it did inside it. lol

## Post 48 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 10:31:17

I was one who was discouraged rather than encouraged by my teachers. I guess that came from being the only blind person in the school. Wait that wasn't all it was because later on, in high school, my sister and I were in the same one and are both blind. I guess it's because they didn't really understand how to work with the blind. In any case, I had to get a backbone.

## Post 49 by forereel (Just posting.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 14:36:11

When out with other blind people,I try not to tell people things until later. I just make it easier for them.
I'll cut up food, explain to the servers they need the service just whatever is required.
I don't like putting people on the spot, but I do like to be told what I could do better.
I don't want to stay in the dark about it.

## Post 50 by Remy (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 14:53:16

I personally have nothing against constructive criticism. I am a writer, after all. That said, the manner in which it is delivered certainly plays a part in how I feel about the person, if not their advice. I can take criticism, but I don’t appreciate douches, even if their advice might at times be sound.
I do find looking and acting confident does help a lot. Simply being friendly doesn’t hurt either. There’s an old cliché: you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I’d agree with it, especially after working in the bank for four years. I do think it important to at least attempt to instill confidence in one’s offspring where possible. As long as you can walk the fine line between acting confident, and cocky. Cockiness and arrogance are simply aggravating. Perhaps it is naive of me, but I feel like much of the bullying would disappear if people just had the ability not to let it affect them as much. That’s a hard thing to do of course, but confidence can certainly help there also.

## Post 51 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 15:34:48

I agree on the importance of the manner in which the information was
delivered, but I've seen people be upset when the remark wasn't even directed
at them. I've even heard blind people say that correcting someone's behavior is
ablist. It was a discussion about a video wherein a blind person handed over
money to a stranger in a coffee shop to be counted. It was two actors, and the
sighted person counted four twenties as four ones and pocketed some of the
money. It was an experiment to see if anyone else would comment. My remark
was that, if it had been real, it would have been his fault in the first place, since
you never ever hand your money to some stranger for them to count it. if you
absolutely need it counted, you hold it up for them. Apparently that's ablist. I
confess, I don't know how.

## Post 52 by DevilishAnthony (Just go on and agree with me. You know you want to.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 15:47:35

Like DG, I always feel like I'm on stage and people are watching, just waiting for me to fuck up. Being totally blind and almost deaf and with such a bad sense of direction these days, i'm stumbling and bumbling all over the place, so that doesn't exactly make me feel confident. I just imagine how I must look to others, and I want to correct it, but most of the time, I don't quite know what to do.
But on a really positive note, when I walked out the door this morning, I was on my way to get a brand new hearing aid that somehow works in conjunction with my cochlear, even though they're on opposite sides. I'm still getting used to how it sounds, but as I sat there, waiting on my ride to pick me up, I began hearing my surroundings and could get vague ideas of where things were. this makes me happier than I've been in a long time.

## Post 53 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 16:15:26

Wow I'm glad it really works for you!

## Post 54 by forereel (Just posting.) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 17:11:08

Well, that handing of money to a stranger isn't a blind thing, that is a not to smart thing.
But, okay, it happened. That will probably be enough to teacfh the lesson.

## Post 55 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 18:28:30

But it didn't really happen because they were acting.

## Post 56 by Smiling Sunshine (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 19:17:36

Yay! I'm happy about your new hearing ade. I hope it continues to help you.

## Post 57 by Remy (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 20:58:15

As for the money handling, I'd say both parties are to blame for different reasons. Yes, it's not smart to hand over money to a stranger. You should know better. But one should also be honorable and honest, and for that reason, it's very much the other person's fault, too. The person who commits the crime is always the most to blame. We can protect ourselves from being a victim, but we are never responsible for the crime itself.

## Post 58 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:02:20

Ah but this is not a perfect world.

## Post 59 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:10:49

I understand and agree with what you're trying to say, Wayne. If you actively engage a person in the customer service field, they have to answer you. They can't just stand there like you didn't speak. Well technically they could, but then you'd have an even more legitimate gripe than you already might have. Their training as a server or whatever other job dictates that they engage back with someone speaking to them. Which is why, even as a young person, if a server asked the sighted person with me what I wanted, I'd answer before they could. I would usually answer the question they had asked, and then add that I would like them to address me directly. Once I did this, servers and others were good at doing it.
Cody, my answer to your question is much like Anthony's. I have no problem with someone saying to me, "Did you try this or that?" Or even, "Maybe next time you could think about doing this or that and see if that makes a difference." It's about wording. What I don't tolerate very wel is something like, "You're a dumb-ass for not having done it this or that way, so it's your fault it happened." I'd still at least think about what the person said and if I could take anything useful away from any suggestions they had to offer, but I'd get pretty annoyed with the tone of it. But I do agree with you that blind people getting upset at someone else's suggestions is ridiculous. I wonder if they'd get upset if someone tried to offer suggestions in an area of life completely unrelated to blindness? How quick some are to pull the ableist card..which is probably the thing that annoys me most of all.
No, you dont' just have some stranger count your money for you. Only time I'd say this would even be halfway ok is if you're in a bank, where it's the employee's job to count and deal with money. But even then, the blind person should know something about what they have.
Anthony, that's great about your new hearing aid! So cool! Keep us posted on how that continues to work as you adjust to it.

## Post 60 by vh (This site is so "educational") on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:13:27

Devilish Anthony, that's great!!
Regarding your post #52--
This is why I say we should just do the best we can do. Someone else might do it better, but we aren't that person. All we can do is work with what we've got and that includes not just vision issues but whatever other issues we've got.
Regarding Silver's post I agree it depends on the way it is worded and also the mood the person is in when reading it.
Sometimes we just need to vent and aren't looking for criticism, constructive or not.
A friend of mine who is blind really goes out of her way to engage with servers. Reading Forereel's posts in this thread has enlightened me to her likely motivation. Sometimes it's so over the top it gets on my nerves, but I'll try to keep all this in mind in the future.

## Post 61 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:15:56

I would never just hand over money. Hell no!

## Post 62 by vh (This site is so "educational") on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:17:52

Post 57 Remy-
Yes!!!!! It drives me crazy wehn there is some kind of theft and the person who was stolen from gets the blame. Yes, they might have been less than perfectly responsible but that has no bearing on the actions or behaviors of the person who did the thieving!

## Post 63 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:21:16

Yes, but you shouldn't give somebody a chance to screw you over in the first place.

## Post 64 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:31:11

Exactly. While the person stealing was very in the wrong, it's up to the first person to handle themselves and their money or other belongings responsibly. If you open the door to allow yourself to get screwed over, it's probably what you're going to get sooner or later. Hence the need for good training on how to handle money safely and independently: cash most of all, but also cards and sensitive financial information like your PIN.
It's not what Cody started this topic about, but his concept applies. Not always, but a lot of the time a blind person who gets screwed over in this way wasn't handling the situation in a safe or independent manner. A blind person who is confident and aware of their money/cards/info is a lot less likely to have this kind of thing happen to them. It doesn't excuse the wrongness of screwing someone over, but we can minimize the chances of it happening by how we conduct ourselves.

## Post 65 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Friday, 29-Jul-2016 21:43:28

a couple things here. hope these make sense.
my step mom was from lake Charles Louisiana. her motto was "if you don't ask, I'm southern. so everything is wonderful. if you want to know the truth ask me what I think. then step back." why on earth would a blind person be offended if another blind person corrected or criticized. often it is the manner in which the remark is made which can get someone's dander up. of course I'm not a criticizing kind of girl. I'm a big one for "have you ever considered...." or "have you ever tried..." or "it might be a good idea if..." a good friend of mine does fish studies with commercial fishermen. she said that's how those big rough guys often get stuff done. make a suggestion. if the person is smart they'll listen. if not oh well too bad so sad.
like someone said,another big influence on me was my dad. nelson talked to anybody any time about anything. as a teenager I totally hated and was mortally embarrassed by his behavior. I was "gosh dad, do you have to speek to every blessed person on god's green earth?" guess what I'm now just as bad or worse and y kids probably feel the same way about me.

## Post 66 by Pasco (my ISP would be out of business if it wasn't for this haven I live at) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2016 3:26:25

On the money thing. I've seen that film. The actual point was to see if by-standers would intervene who saw the cheat, or not get involved. The point was not the money owner, nor the clerk, but the witnesses. Even skilled careful people can get cheated or fooled. It would be nice if a witness stepped in.
As far as Cody's question, I agree with VH. Sometimes a person who complains is not actually looking for or really even needing advice. They are just frustrated and need to tell someone. Being able to recognize when a person wants advice, and when they just need to vent is a fine interpersonal skill. I wish I was better at it.

## Post 67 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2016 7:37:41

I've heard that before. That sometimes people are just looking for someone to
vent to, and I get that. Here's my thought though. If you are looking for
someone to vent, call your best friend and have a private conversation with
your best friend where you rant and rave and vent, and they make coffee or
something. However, I see a lot of people who will go on Facebook, or a place
like this, and spout it off to everyone on their friends list. If you do that, you
can't claim to not want someone to comment. If you don't want comments, you
should restrict the number of people you talk to. That's my thought.

## Post 68 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2016 10:54:15

They want someone to chime in. It's as if they think they have a talk show and we're all guests on the show.

## Post 69 by forereel (Just posting.) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2016 12:59:42

Ah, but some folks post to a lot of people so they can convince them their justified, or whatever.

## Post 70 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2016 13:39:25

and what people choose not to remember is that whatever we say is always out there in the cloud or whatever. I have read that bosses will go back in to people's past face book entries or whatever to find out if the person they have interviewed for a position is really as advertisedon that resumee.

## Post 71 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Saturday, 30-Jul-2016 23:27:13

I tend to find myself at times taking other blind people out and about. I am great with getting around and doing things so other blind people in the area wants me to take them along to learn at times.
I don't mind every now and again but I don't want to be anyones mother.
I took this one yung lady out with another friend of mine from church and this poor yung lady did not know how to not only hold her fork the right way but did not know how to eat an enchilada.
She asked for us to cut it up for her and my friend and I nearly fell out of our seats in shock.
I reached over after trying to tell her to just scoop it because they are soft enough to just scoop them but she didn't know how to scoop so I was showing her.
I found she was holding her fork like a baby with her fist over the fork and not her hand under and holding it like a pen.
I got very upset with this because she had grown up in a blind school and was actively attending an adult living aid training course for the blind.
Not NFB related.
She had also helped me with a fundraiser once before and I had to teach her to stand out and get the people attention to ask for donations. She kept calling out in a near wisper and we had to practice a lot.
I was grateful she help though so I was willing to take the time to help her. I noticed a bit of a change in her attitude and seen her become a bit more confedent however she had a lot of issues and it was like having a five-year-old over and I can't manage being someones mother I am not responcible for.

## Post 72 by VioletBlue (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 1:06:22

Oh, that's pretty sad about your friend, and frustrating for you.
That's brought up a memory, actually, I must have been about six or seven, and my aunt was visiting. She taught me how to hold a fork correctly, because I was holding it just as you describe your friend doing, and when I realized that I had been doing it wrong, and that my mom had never troubled to tell me so, or any teacher at school, even at seven, I felt deeply embarrassed! LOL
I am not the world's expert at O&M either, but I have a friend who lives in another state now, who I used to see often, who is even less confident than I am. When she and I went anywhere together, she would get panicked if she couldn't hear me or my dog jingling, and shout for me. she had a dog too, but they walked slowly, and I was always going ahead because I am a fast walker. I don't know how many times I assured her that I'd wait for her at the next down curb, and wouldn't cross until she caught up, just so we wouldn't inadvertently become separated. It was a bit of a hassle to go anywhere together. However this friend had an easier time than I do, stopping people to ask for assistance, so maybe it balanced out. *laugh*

## Post 73 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 7:25:01

Yeah. The girl seems nice and just despritly wanted a friend but it is hard when she was so dependant. She used a cane and when we went places, she would hold on to me. I have a dog myself. I started to have her do things more on her own and slowed way down for her but there it was again. I was having to teach her everything she should have been able to learn since she was given the opertunities but I guess they weren't incorraged or something.
But with that said, there was once a time when I was in her shoes and needed others to slow down and teach me. So I took the time and a few days out of my life to try to if anything, plant some desire in her heart.
I am kind of excited to see how she turns out one day. I think she will be great if she just tries.

## Post 74 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 8:26:00

yeah, I admit, there's no way I'd go anywhere public with that person again. I
can't deal with blind people who don't know how to eat when they're an adult. I
can't deal with those people who ask for things to be cut up for them in public. I
just can't.

## Post 75 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 9:43:07

you know guys, o one is perfect. meet people wherd help them go farther. kindness is free and the dividends can be priceless. some day someone might have to help us.
it's sad to think that a school for the blind which is supposed to help us make it in the real world couldn't or wouldn't help the young lady with the fork and other major issues.
back in the old days, I had to take a class in deportment. it was taught at a day camp for the blind in washington dc. I was I think seven or eight. unfortunately it was only offered to girls. the guys got to go out on the ball field and play some kind of game which looked a lot more fun. this fading flower of southern womanhood taught us how to walk, hold a fork, set a table properly, fold napkins decoratively, write a thank you note, pour tea, conduct a polite conversation which didn't center on "I" and "me", and a bunch of other stuff which I have forgotten. a lot of it I knew from my mom's nagging, I mean instruction. for most of the young ladies it was untrod territory. although I hated it extremely I'm so glad mom and the teacher made me attend.

## Post 76 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 10:58:49

That may be true but that hippy shit only goes so far.

## Post 77 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 11:29:26

No no, I'm perfectly willing to teach somehow how to use a frok and knife, cut
a steak, fold a napkin, hold a wine glass, order a martini. but I will do those
things at home. If you go to a restaurant, you should already know how to do
those things. If not, find someone to ask to teach you. Hell, if there is anyone
reading this who does not know how to do something, ask me. I will call you on
skipe and work with you til you do know. But going out in public not knowing
how to eat is unacceptible in my opinion.

## Post 78 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 12:22:50

Agreed.

## Post 79 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 13:10:23

Well, it happens.
I’ve not been out with a male that didn’t know how to eat, but I have females.
Because of this, it was, and is easier to deal with and looks just fine if I need to cut their food.
In the males case, I’d stop short of feeding him, but anything else I’d do for him if need be.
In a female’s case, if she didn’t know how to scoop, I’d simply just have fed her.
I wouldn’t matter if we were friends or romantic, it can and was done easily.
Sure, I would say before you go out to eat, you should practice at home, but the fact seems to be that people aren’t taken out to eat, so when they are, their not going to say, well, you know, I’m not sure I know how to eat out, their going to want to go, because they are excited to be going out.
I understand this.
I’ve had one lady who wanted something, but she told me she didn’t want to order it, because she couldn’t cut her food, and would probably make a mess. She was willing to have something lesser, but I didn’t allow it.
I just cut it so she could handle it for her.
I think sometimes, as stated a few post back, support is necessary. Through that support, you build that persons confidence, and trust, so it is easier to teach them, or help them grow.
I prefer that to not taking them anyplace out of my embarrassment, empatientness, because that is what it boils down to.
I tend to feel once upon a time, someone took the time to expose me to things, so when, if I get the chance, I am willing to do same.
Now, maybe they can pick up the check after, and that make it worth it, right?
I’ll just have a few drinks, and then nothing will matter anyway.
Laughing.
I’m teasing. I really believe allowing someone to make that step is best then to do exactly the same as others have done to them.
Now, at my house, we can ditch the flatware and do it bohemian style.
I made a salad one day, and the lady didn’t know how to get some from the bowl.
She asked me how, so I just took her wrist and put her hand in the bowl.
Simpler.
Laughing.

## Post 80 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 13:17:14

On second thought, I'd probably ask the guy if he would be imbarrassed to be helped eat. I'd do it if he was cool with it.
In the girls case, if she wasn't cool with being fed, well, she'd have to order finger food.
As you feed a person, you can also show them how it is done.
Maybe you just get in a different mind set, and make the outing fun, but instructional too.
That is how I feel about it.

## Post 81 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 13:19:39

Eww you didn't use tongs?

## Post 82 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 14:08:44

Wow Wayne, its amazing, you continually shock me with your sexism.

## Post 83 by johndy (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 15:41:55

Um, I’d just feel pretty uncomfortable going that far. I mean, granted if you order a steak, sometimes you get one that might be a little tough to cut because maybe it’s a bit more fatty than you realize and you don’t quite know it until you get it, but you ought to be able to cut it yourself with a little persistence. Otherwise, if you don’t think you can manage a particular dish, you don’t order it. I have to admit I steer clear of lobster in the shell because I’ve never used a lobster fork in my life. I don’t wanna be any more conspicuous than I need to be. I’ve been out with people who have asked that their food be cut up, but they had moderately severe CP, so we make allowances. I’m not as willing to do that with other blind people. I guess in those instances I feel conspicuous by extension.

## Post 84 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 16:15:00

By and large I agree with you Cody. The problem is, sometimes people don't know what they don't know, if that makes sense. Like others here, I held silverware incorrectly for years, but never knew it was wrong because no one had ever taken the time to show me the right way. I had no idea there even was a right or wrong way, and that I was doing it wrong. It's not like we can look around us and make a comparison to how other people are doing things. Well OK, take that back, some things we can compare non-visually, but ones like holding silverware, not so easily. The time a friend finally informed me that I was doing it wrong, we were out at a restaurant. I was totally embarrassed, and eager to learn the proper way to hold/use silverware.
So, if someone doesn't even realize they're doing a given thing wrong, I can't very well blame them. A lot of it for me is how they respond when you do try to show them how to do whatever it is, or show them that they can do it independently instead of having it done for them. Some people don't know a skill simply because the opportunity hasn't been there, but once it is, they're eager to learn and quick to catch on. I have plenty of patience for that. What I don't have patience for is people who willfully remain in their dependent/unskilled ways, who make no effort to change and learn even though there are opportunities and people to teach them. The other inconvenient truth is that sometimes we have to go places in public with those people to help them learn said skills. Some things can be learned at home, others only with getting out, traveling, and doing them in the real world. Again, I'm willing to do this with someone who wants to learn, but not so much with someone who knows they're not skilled in alternative techniques, and chooses to remain that way.

## Post 85 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 16:32:10

Why sexism?
I am willing to do the same for a guy as I would a girl.
I'll admit, it is less of a production for me to offer to do it for a lady, but that is because I'm a mans man.
I'm more comfortable helping the girl in this way.
Now, if me and the guy were say at a bar and he wasn't able to put sauce on his wings or something, I'd be fine just showing him how as I did it for him.
I'd be more comfortable tying his tie, or something, but to feed him I'd need to change my mind set.
Cloudy Cat made the exact point. Some people don't know what they don't know, so I feel making it fun and easy is more constructive then rejecting the outing.
You can't learn to handle food you won't try to handle.
Even seeing people can't exactly deal with everything.
Cracking crabs comes to mind. I've done that for sighted people while out.
No, we didn't need the tools. She'd washed her hands, so.
Laughing.

## Post 86 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 16:38:33

I think the difference for me would be whether or not you can get a task done
with your chosen method. If you can get your food cut up and into your mouth
with your method, then its the right way. The problem comes when you can't do
that. If you can't cut a steak, you know that there is something you can't do.
Cutting is meat is something you know happens, and if you don't know how to
do it, you need to ask. Does that make sense?

## Post 87 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 16:39:25

Last, just because a person has gone to one of these training centers doesn't mean they learned everything.
It isn't the fault of the center, but like school, people don't always pick up everything as others.
You have lots of reasons why, but it happens.

## Post 88 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 16:49:25

It falls on the parents. If a parent never taught the child you have a malformed adult.

## Post 89 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 16:53:53

Totally agree with that.

## Post 90 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 17:03:30

Call this post silly, but here goes.
I can’t use chopsticks. Every time I go out and have the chance I grab them bad boys and try though.
I’ve been fed with them, and the people that knew how, have tried to teach me, but to this day, I’ve still not gotten the hang.
Now, if someone were to spend some time taking me out and not allowing me to ask for flat wear, I’d soon learn.
If I had been raised in a family that used them daily, I’d know.
When I’m at home, I don’t think, well, I need to get some chopsticks and practice.

## Post 91 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 17:37:04

forereel is correct in the since that they sometimes are just excited to be going out. Because they never go out or never go out with friends verses always with family.
I know a few people who are self reliant blind people and still ask the kitchen to cut up their stake. I see no problems with that. Now I do wonder if all your stake gets back on your plate.
Speaking of this girl and her parents, her mother was very, very excited for me to spend time with her daughter. She was hoping I would help teach her a bit of things.
There was only so much I could do in the time we had.
As for the chop sticks.
I am a pro! I love using them and have taught my little family members and a few friends how to use them over the years.

## Post 92 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 17:53:52

No shame in having trouble with chop sticks. But that's not a blind thing it's a cultural thing. I'm so glad to have forks!

## Post 93 by johndy (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 19:06:25

Yeah; I always use forks even in Asian restaurants. chopsticks make me feel like a six-year-old.

## Post 94 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 21:13:17

I was forced to learn how to use chopsticks. When I visited vietnam, our
guide laughed at anyone who didn't know how to use them. I made him show
me until he stopped.
as for having a problem with people asking for their steak to be cut up, I have
two reasons why I have a problem with them. First, if you are in a professional
setting, you need to know how to cut up a piece of meat. If you need to ask for
it cut up in front of someone you want to hire you, you're going to be shooting
yourself in the foot. second, you look dumb. I'm sorry to put it that way, but
you look dumb. An adult needing to ask for someone to cut up their food looks
like a child.
I say this from experience. I've gone to several dinners where groups of blind
people ate together. At all of them, the sighted people who accompanied me
commented on how childish it was for adults to need their food cut up. I get
asked all the time why in the world blind people would need their food cut up
when they're an adult. So, if you want to look like a child, by all means ask for
your food cut up.
There is also the argument that it reflects badly on the other blind people with
you. But that's difficult to prove.

## Post 95 by forereel (Just posting.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 21:51:48

You know my sister whom I love dearly cuts my steak up if I am at her house and she is servering it.
This same loving sister has given me the cast iron skillet set I use to cook steaks, because I was talking about needing to go buy one.
She knows well, I can cook, and do steaks well, but for some reason, she still starts to cut up my meat unless I tease her about it.
I don't stop her, I let her finish.
Laughing.
But, seeing people have problems too. Some can't use chopstick either.
They don't understand how to crack crab with the tool provided, but I can, so do it for them.
People ask servers for services all the time, so I'd say it was smart of a blind person that didn't want to look challenged in front of others to simply state, please have my steak cut.
I'd higher that person, because they showed problem solving skills and were smart enough to know when they required support.
I tend to think the world is too tight assed, but that is a personal opinion.

## Post 96 by johndy (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 22:49:25

Have to agree with Cody on this one. If you’re only blind and you ask for your food to be cut up for you when you’re in public, it does make you seem more pathetic. I remember myself and some other people, both blind and sighted, going out to eat with this one particular blind person, and she talked with the server at length about how she wanted her food cut up for her because she wanted things to be more manageable, dah dah dah. Sitting there listening to it was pretty embarrassing. But then, I don’t think this person was all that self-possessed. I do think if you have a weakness in some areas, you just fix it. Ask someone to show you if you haven’t the nack or whatever. There’s a lot less shame in that than just taking the easy way out and letting yourself be compromised. But then, you guys already know how I feel about things like that.

## Post 97 by chelslicious (like it or not, I'm gonna say what I mean. all the time.) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 23:16:20

Shame on those of you who say it makes blind people look stupid to ask for their food to be cut, or any other kind of help for that matter, at a restaurant.
Some of you have already mentioned reasons why I disagree with that, but one that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that for some people, they have to do what works for them (that is why I strongly advocate against saying there is a right way and a wrong way to do things). Because, as has been pointed out by Wayne, this is not strictly a blindness thing. Sighted people have these same kind of problems, to one degree or another.

## Post 98 by johndy (I just keep on posting!) on Sunday, 31-Jul-2016 23:46:32

Yes, and when sighted people have those problems, it’s usually because of a motor difficulty like cerebral palsy. We make allowances for that. Next?

## Post 99 by lights_rage (I just keep on posting!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 5:23:38

I have sighted folks cut my food. Only in public I cannot hold my flat ware normally or minipulate a knife. My hands just are too weak. My family never taught me to cut food never trusted me with knives. When we are at home i just grab the food with my hands and eat. One thing i cannot stand though is hearing someone blind or sighted chew with there mouth open I got slapped as a child for that and its so nasty and i hear young adults do it all the time it almost makes me sick.

## Post 100 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 9:33:09

Jenny, if you have some sort of disability that makes your hands weak, then
that's fine. You're compensating for a disability. Blind people, by which I mean
people who are only blind and nothing else, are not compensating for a
disablity, they're compensating for an inability.
and chelsea, yes, sighted people have trouble cutting their food too. We
usually call those sighted people children, because sighted children are the ones
with that problem. I have yet to meet an adult sighted person with trouble
cutting a steak. so no, by and large, sighted people do not have this problem.
So you're equating blind people with sighted children. That is the only logical
comparison. If you're thirty, and you are on the level with a sighted child, you
look pathetic. Its the same for blind adults who don't know how to tie their own
shoes.

## Post 101 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 11:35:43

I will say something about that. My mother-in-law has a great deal of trouble cutting things though she does manage to cut meat. Now, if you give her some pie or something she will make a mess every time. So, okay, some sighted people do have trouble I guess.

## Post 102 by Voyager (I just keep on posting!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 13:18:50

SilverLightning you're being unfair. Lots of blind people can't tie their shoes because most sighted people are terrible at teaching it. When I was little, I really wanted to learn, and teachers tried showing me over and over again. They would have me feel what their hands were doing with the laces. All I felt was a jumbled mess of laces and fingers and I couldn't figure out how the laces went from one configuration to another. When I was ten, my step mom finally taught me by explaining it step by step. I learned it immediately, but if it weren't for her, I'd probably still be unable to tie shoes. I also know sighted professionals who haven't worn lace-up shoes in decades.
As for the steak in a professional setting, I'd order a burger instead. Problem solved.

## Post 103 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 13:56:54

cracking crabs is an unfair test. when I met my husband I didn't know how to do this. when I was growing up weate crab cakes. so he taught me how to do it.
many sighted people have terrible table manners. one of my best friends of almost 41 years has totally normal vision and eats like a pig. anyway, this is what I have been told. she spills her food, drops stuff, and is totally embarrassing. it's because she gets caught up in whatever people are discussing and just doesn't think. since she has 99% of other sterling qualities I just overlook it.
steaks if cookeed properly are easy. the last banquet I attended had the best ny strip I've ever eaten. this is surprising because those setting aren't noted for outstanding anything.
the only thing I have ever asked to be cut up for me in a public setting was a Cornish hen. it was at a family member's wedding and we had no choice. excuse me, but I am not a veterinarian and I don't do food surgery. I was sitting at the head table at this function. the waiter quietly asked if I would like the kitchen to disjoint the thing. I said oh please, you are an angel and thank you.
it was a lot of hassle for something that had no taste. i'll eat them at home but will never get those stupid birds out.
if I'm at a professional function, i'll get something I feel comfortable eating. salads are my favorite standby.
chopsticks are hard. I've never learned to use them. people can laugh at me. so what? to bad so sad for them. I'd rather taste the chef's delicious food then try getting it into my mouth.

## Post 104 by Shadow_Cat (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 14:48:21

The thing we have to be careful of is judging before we know the full situation. And I'll say right now I'm guilty as charged on this one. I've done it before, sometimes still do, probably will again. But my own fiancé, and other friends, have taught me to be at least a little more careful. Some of those other disabilities we speak of are invisible, so it may not be apparent that someone else has them. For example, my fiancé Mark sometimes has tremors and muscle spasms in his hands. This can make it unsafe for him to handle really sharp silverware. Given that, he will often ask for things to be cut up in the kitchen at a restaurant, or I have done it for him. there is a reason, and a good one, but not always an apparent one. If we were out to dinner with a bunch of blind people who couldn't see his hands shake, for example, they'd think he was just blind, and judge him accordingly when he made the request. I also have deaf-blind friends who I initially judged for not traveling the same way that someone who is only blind would do, and then because of CL Scott on here, and some others, learned how differently someone who is deaf-blind must do things.
Sometimes I'll find myself reacting in a disgusted manner when a person who seems to be only blind doesn't do something on their own. Then I'll try to, through conversation, get to know them, see if there really are reasons why they may do it a given way. If it is indeed only blindness, then maybe I can give them some tips. If there is another reason, then it's them who has to educate me, and me who has to keep an open mind.

## Post 105 by Imprecator (The Zone's Spelling Nazi) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 16:12:01

I have tremors as well, but if it's a steak or something I cut it into strips first, then cut those crosswise. That's how I was taught to do it. I was also taught to hold the knife in the other hand in certain cases to avoid pushing food off the plate by accident.

## Post 106 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 20:26:24

after I signed off on my message earlier today I remembered something interesting. a friend of mine frequently accompanies her husband to big deal professional dinners for his job. she's a blind lady. her husband gave her some brand of very expensive steak knife in a case. she carries this in her purse. that way she's never is in danger of getting one of those dull useless ones sometimes found at banquets or restaurants. that way she manages independently and gracefully. thought it was a very sensitive move by her husband

## Post 107 by Nicky (And I aprove this message.) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 22:49:20

This person who asked for their food cut up is a smart and nice person. A bit on the lazy side of things but hey.
I have came across another person who eats with their mouth open and it is so groce. I video taped them and was going to post it on facebook to embarrass them but realized if they have gone on this long without caring, why would they care if I posted it on facebook. Only people who would have most likely said something would have been just a bunch of sighted people who was going to think I was mean and smack smack was just a poor blind person.
goodness graces it was sickning though when I was forced to listen to it.
I would say something and they would stop, for like five minutes then go at it again.
It was like watching a dog go after fresh meet who has not eaten in a week.

## Post 108 by Smiling Sunshine (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 23:13:53

No kidding!
You can manhandle your food or let someone else cut it for you but for the love of all things digestible, please oh please oh please don't make me have to hear it once it's entered your mouth.
The noises associated with mastication disgust me. OOOOOOOg!

## Post 109 by rdfreak (THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE-BLUE KANGA-KICKIN AUSIE) on Monday, 01-Aug-2016 23:26:00

I was going to say that very thing re judgement. Cody and others love making sweeping judgements and unfair claims.
I now suffer from a tremmour due to my stacks of medication I'm on which can make life very difficult.

## Post 110 by Pasco (my ISP would be out of business if it wasn't for this haven I live at) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 1:21:37

Being judgmental is oh so easy when one is good at something. It makes them feel superior. Would you like to be judged like that on something you are not skilled at by someone who wants to feel superior to you? Don't think so.
Does anyone else on here find use of the label blindy demeaning? I am a man who is blind. I am not a blindy. Sightey is also demeaning.

## Post 111 by VioletBlue (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 6:02:06

Wow, SL, malformed adults? A bit harsh, I'd say.
I'm late to this dinner party, but I suppose the embarrassment factor just depends on the manner in which people ask for help, their personality, how much of a show they make of themselves. That's probably what some of you object to.
I'd assist a friend in cutting up their food; I'd think nothing of it. It's just a kindness, and I appreciate it if someone I'm having a meal with offers to help me, so I'd gladly share a meal with Wayne, anytime. *smile*
I can manage most foods, but I do generally ask for steaks to be cut, and no need for explanations, (as Johndy's dinner companion did, post 96. Yeah, that's unnecessary.). The key is to ask *before* they've brought the plate to the table. It's discreet, and calls less attention than it would if I sat there and struggled to slice it myself, or asked someone at my table to do it. Sometimes I feel self-conscious asking, but that is usually down to the server and whether I have to repeat my request because they haven't understood or didn't hear me. But I've encountered servers that, when I ordered a steak, said they'd have it sliced, before I even mentioned it. It just wasn't a big deal; they deal with all sorts of requests and customers, I doubt they really give it much thought.
Oh, and hopefully if one is on a lunch interview, or eating with people you don't know well, avoid ordering a steak or other messy or problematic meal! That's easy, and you have control over that.
However, I'll admit that I'd negatively judge a grown person who can't tie his shoes! LOL

## Post 112 by VioletBlue (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 6:10:39

...and now after reading Voyager's post on shoe tying difficulties, I'll have to apologize for that judgment, reserve it only for those grown people who refuse to try to learn how to tie shoes--and I have known someone like that. LOL
yes, good God, chew with mouths closed! There is no excuse for that sort of bad manners!

## Post 113 by VioletBlue (Help me, I'm stuck to my chair!) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 6:23:38

I don't find "blindy" or "blink" bothersome, but then, nobody's using it to refer to me or anyone else, in everyday conversation. I guess blink is somewhat less offensive to my ear; it's an ordinary word with other meaning, so maybe that's why.
Not sure why, but hearing *"The blind"* irks me a lot more, when said or written by sighted people. ...as in names of agencies, programs for, etc. The blind, like we're aliens. To hell with that!

## Post 114 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 11:07:37

Ah, them words. Call me whatever you like, just call me.
Laughing.
Now on these crabs. If they are mine, I use the tools mamma nature provided.
Not only do I get to taste more of that good butter I've slapped on them, these teeth just do it best.
I tell my trainees the same thing, but if they insist of being proper, well, you just have to teach them what they asked.
Laughing.
On the shoes, I've tied them. Seemed the safe thing to do.
I didn't want to trip while walking next to them, and I didn't want them tripping.
We were trying to catch a bus, so instead of opening up class, I just tied them.

## Post 115 by Imprecator (The Zone's Spelling Nazi) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 11:42:50

I brought up the chewing with your mouth closed thing at a meeting once at the Hellen Keller center when I was in attendance because I could clearly hear other students doing it in the cafeteria. The staffers gave me the well, they can't hear themselves doing that. Um, hello? You can still feel if your lips are closed or not.

## Post 116 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 12:04:12

Places with multiple disabilities make so many allowances. Oh, they're just slow, oh, they can't hear, oh, they never learned social skills. It's no cause for bad or rude behavior. Staff just sits back and lets shit happen. It's not okay to be a malformed adult. Nobody's perfect but good god try to work on your flaws.

## Post 117 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 13:19:24

"If we could look into each other's hearts and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care."
-- Marvin J. Ashton
someone happened to send me the above quotation morning. thought it might fit in to this discussion.
for the recordd people with multiple disabilities are not malformed adults. we are blind. therefore we have a malformation too. come to think of it, no human being is perfect. therefore we all fall in to this category. that is an ugly ugly word!!!
oh for the person who said that what I have expressed is worthless hippie shit, if it weren't for that stuff you'd be living in a far different world. believe me, back in my youth things were a lot harsher and more difficult.

## Post 118 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 13:23:47

I didn't say people with multiple disabilities are malformed adults I said when parents don't properly teach a child they grow into malformed adults. I thought it was a simple message. And what makes you think the world is so great now?

## Post 119 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 13:34:48

Because Forereell lives in it.
With out Forereel, I'll tell ya.
Laughing.

## Post 120 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 13:35:39

oh yes, forgot to mention that I totally agree with whoever said that some staff in centers for individuals with multiple disabilities let students get away with too much. it's easier to label than to instruct.
when our daughter was born, it was immediately apparent that she was blind. when I asked the social worker what resources were available, she said "you need to get in touch with your grief. it is not time to answer those questions." none to graciously or kindly I told her to get off her platitudes and give me some service. when I got home I had plenty of time to follow her advice. while I could avail myself of her resources she ought to do the job for which she was paid. she did too.
yes, people who are deaf blind can't hear themselves chew. if they want to function in a sighted world they need to fix that problem.
it's not the label professional's assign to us that determines the kind of life we live. what we do with what we have ensures our happiness and success.
let's face it, professionals find problems so they don't lose their jobs. if they don't do their best to fix these, then they still are employed.
when I attended the school for the blind, they said I had a reading problem, a slight motor issue, and no personality. probably I wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. after graduating from college I was fully employed for 32 years, have been happily married for a long time, had two kids who function well in society, and so forth. poop on the big boys. they are idiots.
sorry but this discussion has really struck a nerve with me. it was not my intention to offend anyone. if I did, I'm truly sorry. enjoy your day.

## Post 121 by forereel (Just posting.) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 13:42:43

I love your post turricane.
I also believe if we treated each other better we'd be better.
I also think a parent is really the key factor in much of this.
It is sad to say, but professionals aren't always good at what they do.
If a child has problems, one, or several, they should be addressed.
If not however, if you call yourself a friend, I still believe in support.

## Post 122 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Tuesday, 02-Aug-2016 14:05:09

margorp, this is not a wonderful world. there are many problems. thnks for clarifying your coment about malformed people. sorry for my obtuseness.
what I was saying is that things are better for disabled people now thant 50 years ago. they are a long long way from perfect but improvements have been made.
for example, as a child, there were ignorant parents who wouldn't let their kids play with me because I was blind. many people screamed at me because since I couldn't see I probably could not hear or think either. this stuff seems a lot less prevalent now a days or at least when my daughter was young.
oh and yes, parents are the key to success for a lot of blind people. it's been gratifying to see what a good job many have done with and for many of you. if the family can't help their child then by god a professional should intervene in school or wherever. kids are our nations most precious resource. it enfuriates me when the system screws them up.
thanks for reading. I'm done. over and out.

## Post 123 by Reyami (I've broken five thousand! any more awards going?) on Tuesday, 16-Aug-2016 16:05:44

I'm also disgusted if I have to hear people chew their food with their mouth open.

## Post 124 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Tuesday, 16-Aug-2016 16:29:30

Turricain, first you agree with me, then you disagree. Agree, disagree, make up your mind. Pay attention to the author of the post.

## Post 125 by Remy (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 15:07:02

The sound of chewing is like nails on a chalk board for me. It feels like insects under my skin. Even closed mouth chewing, if there’s no other noise to compete with it. It’s not hard to chew with your mouth closed. Though if you’ve been doing it one way for so long, it may be hard to change your behavior.
As for the whole teaching one to do and act a certain way to fit into society, yes, I believe much of that comes from how we are raised. I too never learned to tie my shoes until I was 12 for two reasons, and I am possessed of some limited sight. First, my parents did not teach me in a manner which made sense to me. It took someone familiar with the blind – my itinerant teacher – to explain it in a manner that made sense. Second, and this is important, I wasn’t ready to learn. That’s what I see so often in the blind community. There are usually people who are willing to teach us things, but we have to be receptive to learning. I had a friend, they are in their thirties, and still have no idea how to do a lot of the simple, daily tasks many probably take for granted. Part of that is down to how they are raised. Everything was done for them, and there is probably a level of comfort in familiarity there. But they could learn if they really wanted to. Haha, my wife’s the same way with computers. She uses them, but has not even a basic understanding of how to maintain them. Not that I’m any computer whiz myself.
As for cutting, I don’t think anyone’s ever shown me the “proper” way to do it. I do cut my own food, either in public or private, but I’m always very concerned about food coming off my plate when I cut. Usually I’m okay, but depending on the dish, it has happened.

## Post 126 by just-chillin (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 16:36:13

Well, to the OP, instead of putting the sighted uniform on, what I do is simply order first, then it's out of the way. Or if the waiter/tress asks the other person what I want, which I can't remember that happening it may have a long time ago, I just interrupt them and blurt out my order. Easy fix. No disrespect to the other person I'm with, but if the person coming to the table can ignore me, well hell I'll ignore the person I'm with merely because the waitress/waiter ignored me, so I automatically order first. My friends get that and understand it, because they aren't stupid and understand me. When I illustrate this point they go, oh, well yeah that makes sense I'd do the same thing. That's how I drive my point home, not by sitting there and going "oh well you know I am blind and I really don't appreciate you doing blah blah blah". Tell them by showing them by mere example, that creates the emotional response in their brains and potentially could be more meaningful. Makes them feel like the little person. If they don't wish to feel that way, then, oh gee, the old saying, how does it go? Treat others as you'd like to be treated. I love being around intelligent, kind, loving and interesting people. I don't care about your flaws, just don't use mine to put me down simply because you no nothing and don't want to be disrespectful, but you really are.

## Post 127 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 16:48:13

But does that fix the problem, or simply gloss over the problem? If all you're
doing is forcing your way in, which I agree is sometimes required, are you fixing
the problem, or simply getting over it? I think by acting more engaged, more
attentive, more open for lack of a better word, you fix the problem. I think
simply blurting out your order is simply glossing it over.
Besides that, some restaurants actually have rules about how the wait staff
take orders. at some, the lady is always taken first. Some start from the left
and work their way around the table. It all depends.
So I think the more brutal way, though sometimes necessary, should not
really be our go to tactic.

## Post 128 by just-chillin (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 16:49:46

You know what come to think of it, it was my mobility teacher who taught me how to tie my shoes in fourth grade, until that point I wore Velcro sneakers. My parents turned me over to the system, but to the public system not the institutional system. My7 dad just didn't teach me anything nor my mom so I had to learn on a whimb through life.

## Post 129 by just-chillin (Zone BBS is my Life) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 16:56:21

When you can't see body language or read eye contact or see mouth movement from under the breath speaking, you dominate the situation to make the attention go to you. Being nice and fluffy can work if you are aware that the person is paying attention to you but the other communication factors they know are unreadable to you and for whatever reason, seems to give them the moral upper hand or something. Yes ladies first sometimes in some places, but usually it's me and a buddy going out to a steak house or a buffet or something. Since I am not doing anything weird, usually sitting there talking to my buddy, the person coming to the table generally has no clue I'm blind, since, as I'm told by many people, I don't quote act blind. You don't automatically dominate the situation but only if it calls for it.

## Post 130 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 17:23:12

Ok, I just saw Voyager's post. So lets talk about tying shoes.
Now, if voyager is ten, the post is understandable. Your parents haven't
taught you, teachers haven't taught you, you don't understand, so you don't
know how. That's how I was with many things. It took me forever to learn how
to tie my own ties. I had my stepfather do it until I was 18 or 19 because it was
faster and I would get frustrated doing it. But then I moved out of the house.
Now, I was an adult, expected to dress up for weddings, going to church at
that time in my life, going to funerals, job interviews, all manner of things I had
to wear a tie for, and I had no idea how to do it. I didn't have my stepdad there
to tie it for me anymore. I had two choices. One, I could wear a clip on tie, or
two, I could learn how to tie a tie. Now, clip on ties, for anyone who doesn't
know, look like the father of all shit. If you want someone to think that you
don't know how to dress yourself, wear a clip on tie. Unless you're a cop, then
they're expected, but for safety reasons, different story. so that left me with
learning how.
So, I googled how to tie a tie, got one of my ties, sat down on my bed, and I
worked and worked and worked until I could tie a tie. I probably don't do it
right, and I probably don't do it perfectly, and I still can't figure out how to get
the long part of the triangular knot to point downward. It always points over to
the right when I do it, but by god I can tie my own damn ties.
So, voyager, you are not ten I believe. You are a fully grown and independent
adult, have been for some years if memory serves without looking at your
profile. There is no reason you couldn't have taught yourself how to tie your
shoes. It might not have been perfect, and it might not have been all that
pretty, but not pretty is better than not at all. And, on a side note, those people
you know who wear non-laced shoes in professional settings, are either badly
dressed for their professional setting, or not in a truly professional setting at all.
They might be in business casual settings, like computer software workers or
something like that. That's not the kind of setting I'm talking about. Same with
ordering a burger, usually, if you're at some form of banquet, you don't get to
choose what you order. it'll usually be meat or fish, with maybe a vegetarian
option. You don't get a full menu to order a burger instead of a steak.
Now, this probably sounds judgmental of me, to expect someone to know how
to do task A. And maybe it is, but let me explain. There are certain things which
it is ok to not know how to do. I, for example, am clueless when it comes to
flambeing food. I'm not even brave enough to try. I'd love to make creme
brulee, but the thought of using a blow torch terrifies me. I'd burn my fingers
off, and I need those fingers.
However, there is a difference between something like flambe, which is a high
skill for cooking, and something like making yourself some scrambled eggs,
making spaghetti, or one I heard recently, using your own oven. Those are
things you should at least be able to do. Folding clothes, you should know how
to do that. Basic, key word there, basic, tasks should be things you already
know how to do. If you can't, you need to learn them. It'll take you a few years,
and you may never be professional level at it. Your eggs might never be perfect,
and your seams may never be perfectly pressed, but you at least need to know
how to do them. Otherwise, how do you expect to live on your own?

## Post 131 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 20:04:26

Exactly, and I've had the same issue with my ties. Ug but I did finally learn.

## Post 132 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 22:11:27

hey guys, I've just learned something. it never occurred to me that tying a tie was a big deal for guys. my husband who is blind always did it. I asked him how he learned and he said his college room mate taught him. then, when we got married, my dad imbellished the rose so to speak. you know I never knew my dad did that. how nice of him to keep his mouth shut and not make my husband feel small. somehow I figured that you all were kind of like born with that skill.
margorp sorry about the confusion with the messages. no one is perfect. please forgive.
silver lightning, using a blow torch is not a wise thing for us to do. when I was in sixth grade I was working on a science experiment and my partially sighted teacher burned the whole front of my bangs off up to the hairline. what a stench. Until they grew out I looked like a molting ferret.
oh yes, silver lightning what are perfect scrambled eggs? each person makes different ones and most are delicious.
as for the learning stuff at a cedrtain age.. there are certain times in life when learning something is age and developmentally appropriate. for example, babies learn to eat food between six months and one year. this varies by culture. if a child is very ill and misses out on this stage, it can be taught but it is much more difficult. whether a child is sighted or blind between the ages of six and 10 or so the eye hand or muscular or whatever control we have is developed to the point that this task can be mastered. later in life we can and should learn this but it is more challenging.
as for the person not being ready to learn something I agree and also disagree with this statement. lots of stuff we must master is not fun so we aren't ready to learn it. when we were taught the fundamentals of bed making and room cleaning, how many of us gasped with excitement? too bad I never knew the "I'm not ready for this." argument. probably if I had tried it, if I'd dared, I'd have gotten "suck it up buttercup. after a week of grounding let's see if you are ready to learn."
there are some other things like reading where readiness is not always the same. often boys take longer to read. since most education primarily in the elementary years is female centric they get labeled as having learning delays. if they are given a year or so, they will naturally catch on and catch up. themark of a good teacher is if he/she can tell the students who are, as they said in my generation, late bloomers from those who have a serious problem. gosh don't I sound like a pedantic pain in the ass. I love this board and the interesting topics. enjoy your day.

## Post 133 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 22:22:20

I agree with you, but I'm not talking to children here. I understand if a blind
ten year old can't tie his or her shoes, or cook, or fold laundry, or iron, or mop,
or what have you. I understand that. Its hard to learn, hellishly boring, and
seems about as useless as possible at that age. But we're no longer ten. We're
adults now, and adults don't have that excuse. We either learn them, or they
don't get done. Unless you hire them done, and who wants to spend that much
money on simple tasks?
wE no longer have that excuse. At least I don't feel we do. The idea of
something being hard to learn, that all went out the window around the age of
majority. If we can all learn how to use iphones and apexes, pen friend labelers
and IReaders, we can certainly learn how to tie our shoes or iron our clothes
and dress ourselves appropriately. I don't think that's asking too much is it? It
astounds me that we can be simultaneously so technologically advanced, and
yet still struggle with things like that.

## Post 134 by forereel (Just posting.) on Wednesday, 17-Aug-2016 22:42:24

I have to agree with Silver here.
The wait staff never ignores you. You don’t need to talk over your friends to get your order in either.
If you hear the wait staff ask, “now what does she want?” that is your cue to say.
Most times the wait staff moves around the table, so when it is your turn they’ll ask.
On the tie, I even help my sighted sons do this. I’m the dad, so am expected to know how to tie the damn thing.
Laughing.
Now, to get it even, you put the short end at your belt, then tie it.
If it doesn’t come out, you make it a bit longer.
Some guys wear the fat end longer, some like it even. I’m an even guy.
I can’t even remember how I learned. I think a guy at a suit shop showed me, but I’m not sure.
I had to wear them as a kid, or in my teens, so maybe my dad taught me.

## Post 135 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Thursday, 18-Aug-2016 0:42:09

Oh I can get the length right Wayne. Takes a bit of fidgeting, but I can get it.
Its the knot I can never get quite right. They're supposed to be an elongated
triangle, with the longer point downward. When I do it, the longer point goes to
the right instead of downward. I can never figure out what I'm doing wrong to
make it do that, but its a tiny detail no one notices. Now if I could just find a tie
bar I like.

## Post 136 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 18-Aug-2016 6:22:15

Oh, that. That is some finger work.
I sort of grab it with my thumb and finger to adjust it.
Fiddling as you suggest.
Wear a gold chain. Simpler.
Laughing.
I do feel dressed with a tie, but I don't wear one often anymore.

## Post 137 by turricane (happiness and change are choices ) on Thursday, 18-Aug-2016 13:33:39

tie bars. that is what children are for. that is one of the universal fathers day gifts. of course they are the knock off kind but everymost dads I know wear them with pride.

## Post 138 by forereel (Just posting.) on Thursday, 18-Aug-2016 14:19:05

I never received a tie bar. Maybe it was my taste wasn't dressy enough?
Laughing.
Oh and avoid tiing the damn thing. Toss on a pretty scarf.
All you have to do is drop it around your neck and bring the ends even.
If you want fancier, clip it together with that tie bar you got for fathers day.
Laughing.

## Post 139 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Thursday, 18-Aug-2016 16:33:02

I've always found a parisian scarf knot to be more my style Wayne, but a tie
bar would look pretty cool if you have the right kind.

## Post 140 by Pasco (my ISP would be out of business if it wasn't for this haven I live at) on Monday, 22-Aug-2016 4:59:35

Lots of young males do not know how to tie a tie. Clip-ons are more common than you think, and some look fine. But I agree, I prefer to tie my own. The triangle knot is called a half winsor. Some guys use a full winsor which looks more like a cylinder. My dad taught me. I once had a young intern working for me ask me to show him how to tie a tie. He was sighted. Guys teach guys. If you still do not have it right, there is no shame in asking another man to help you get it right. People do notice if the knot is not straight.

## Post 141 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Monday, 22-Aug-2016 15:17:06

At the end of the day nobody is really going to point and laugh if your tie isn't perfect.

## Post 142 by SilverLightning (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Monday, 22-Aug-2016 16:32:21

No, they won't. Its just one of those things I wish I were better at.

## Post 143 by margorp (I've got the gold prolific poster award, now is there a gold cup for me?) on Monday, 22-Aug-2016 18:24:57

Oh I feel the same way. It is a source of annoyance for me.