# Echo Location

Category: Let's talk

## Post 1 by HauntedReverie (doing the bad mango) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 5:39:59

We were discussing this on VT the other day. Some people like, snap their fingers or something to hear if an obstical is near them. I was wondering how many zoners do that? I mean, I tried it and it didn't work. I mean, why not just use your cane or something? Anyway. Just curious.

## Post 2 by SingerOfSongs (Heresy and apostasy is how progress is made.) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 5:47:00

I use it sometimes (though I've never actualy snapped my fingers.) I personally use it more pasively, letting other sounds and air bounce off of things, though I'll ocasionally make a noise to help the cause. It's useful for judging things that are coming up, before your cane contacts them, or judging generally how far away a building is, or it's general location. I can also folllow walls with it, if it's not too loud in the area, and I don't have a cane. I would never suggest it as a primary mobility tool, but it does give you a good deal of information if you learn how to use it. what I do I developed on my own, not from hearing about it from others. I actually hadn't heard mention of it from others until a few years ago.

## Post 3 by BB (move over school!) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 6:01:23

I use sounds to hear where cars are parked or sitting, or I use it in one parking lot to find a curb that I have to trail along. If I don't have a cane and I am inside I use it to follow walls by whistling. But as a norm I don't use it.

## Post 4 by motifated (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 6:32:24

Interesting topic. I met a man at a conference who teaches the techniques. I use it a lot. Like everyone else said, it isn't my primary tool, but it helps. If your a good finger snapper, that works quite well. You can use your cane tappingit loudly. Solid canes generally work better, I suspect because there aren't any breaks and the sound is conducted better throughou it. I think the NFB canes are particularly good for echo location, because they generate a click containing higher frequencies, and the sound travels better. When I taught O and M, I would use echo location to show people that they could perceive/hear how far they were from a wall, because as we move closer to the wall, it takes les time for the sound to travel back to our ears. The gentleman of whom I spoke has a website, and if I can find it, I'll post it here.
Lou

## Post 5 by Selena Fan (Account disabled) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 6:47:51

I saw this topic on Prime Time! I think it's kind of cool! In fact I'd love to learn how to use it! Since I don't like my cane and I'm scared of dogs except for my new dog Daisy! I've taught her to bring me to the mail box and to Miss Karen's house!

## Post 6 by jamesk (This site is so "educational") on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 12:38:56

I use an NFB cane with a metal tip for this type of thing all the time. I think it is more appropriate to use the sound made by the cane than snapping you fingers, clicking you tongue, etc. the metal tip gives plenty of sound cues.

## Post 7 by bozmagic (The rottie's your best friend if you want him/her to be, lol.) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 12:40:55

I'm partially deaf, goes with my medical condition in general, and I use echo location. Apparently, eople like me use it. I used to clap my hands or stamp my feet so I could tell if I was getting close to the wall or closed door or window of a building, parked cars, pillar boxes, even parked prams or pushchairs. When I was at Loughborough, I used it to locate people, dustbins, fire doors, stairs Etc.

## Post 8 by HauntedReverie (doing the bad mango) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 18:23:58

I dunno, I can hear the air, but I'll have to try snapping I guess.

## Post 9 by Cristobal (Veteran Zoner) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 18:50:57

It's quite a useful tool actually. When I was really using it, I was able to tell the difference between glass, wood, cement etc. The only thing it's not good for is drop offs like stairs and so on. I once spoke to the guy who really developed it. His name is Dan Kisch (I'm not sure if that's how you spell his last name though). He's an O and M instructor out here. in the Los Angeles area. He is supposedly so good at it that he can distinguish the different foliage on trees and other vegetation. he also goes bike riding with his friends just using his echo location.
Cristobal

## Post 10 by sparkie (the hilljack) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 20:35:32

I only use it with my cane it tells me where parked cars are at.
Troy

## Post 11 by motifated (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 21:50:29

Cristobal, you're right. He presented at a conferrence and showed his video of bikeriding. Pretty neat.

## Post 12 by motifated (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 21:50:30

Cristobal, you're right. He presented at a conferrence and showed his video of bikeriding. Pretty neat.

## Post 13 by frequency (the music man) on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2006 22:54:31

i use tongue clicking and finger snapping for sonar. works quite well.

## Post 14 by HauntedReverie (doing the bad mango) on Thursday, 24-Aug-2006 18:22:27

lol I don't find it useful. I tried it today, and still didn't know the copy machine was there, using the echo thing.

## Post 15 by JerseyGirl1989 (Zone BBS is my Life) on Thursday, 24-Aug-2006 20:03:00

Hey! Interesting topic!! I use it around things, or to get myself around things. I'll use it, when I'm close to something, like an ally way, or building, or walls, etc.
Amber

## Post 16 by motifated (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Thursday, 24-Aug-2006 21:32:07

Haunted, you picked a hard topic to try this with at first. Try picking a wall and walking toward it. Listen to the difference in sound as you get closer. An extension of the same idea is the ability to "hear" or "feel" walls as you approach them. the objects tend to "deaden" the sound, or block wind currents. I'm sure there's a more scientific explanation for this, but I don't know what it is.
Lou

## Post 17 by frequency (the music man) on Thursday, 24-Aug-2006 23:00:39

for example, i live in a house that has a patio with a roof, and polls around it. I'll click my tongue to insure i don't run in to these square polls. i'd say they're about 6 inches all the way around.

## Post 18 by HauntedReverie (doing the bad mango) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 4:31:00

yeah, I do the wind thing with stufff, hear the sound or whatever, and blake, that works?

## Post 19 by Twinklestar09 (I've now got the bronze prolific poster award! now going for the silver award!) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 6:19:24

This is an interesting topic for me. I honestly never knew that so many other blind people use echolocation, like that they pay that much attention to how sounds bounce off of things and can tell about little details other than the general place of where they are. I don't know if this would count, but when I'm walking, sometimes I can "see" shadows like buildings, walls, (sometimes) breezways, or other large objects when I am walking beside them (they don't have to be directly next to me), or am getting to them. I don't know how to explain it; maybe I feel them and my brain translates it into a shadow because my eyes actually haven't worked at all anymore for about ten years. I'm not actually paying attention to the sound when I do that. As for sound echolocation, I especially usually pay attention to sound echoes when I'm in a building and can tell basic stuff like hallways, whether or not the ceiling is high, and size of the room and/or hall.

## Post 20 by mysticrain (Art is born of the observation and investigation of nature.) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 8:24:21

Well I use echo location a bit, though I mainly rely on my cane. But when I do use echo location, I'll do something discrete, like clear my throat. But I knew a girl who would just randumly say things like harry potter. I think that sighted people don't need anything else to make them think we're mentally challenged. But Tinkerbell, I know what you mean, based on sounds bouncing off walls and such, as I walk bu them, I'll think I see a shadow of it. That is in the total dark, or when I have my eyes closed.
Jen

## Post 21 by motifated (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 11:50:45

Jen, as for you, we know about your mental status. Why didn't you tell us that the creatures who obducted you sent you back?
Tinkerbell, you're right. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Similar to that, an older person I know once described snow as a "blind man's fog." It totally absorbs all those auditory cues as to buildings, and even muffles traffic sounds.
Lou

## Post 22 by frequency (the music man) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 12:52:56

yes, it works quite well.

## Post 23 by blbobby (Ooo you're gona like this!) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 13:08:50

Check out this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_echolocation
"Human echolocation is a technique involving echolocation used by some blind humans to navigate within their environment. It is similar in principle to active sonar and the animal echolocation employed by some non-human animals, including bats and dolphins.
By interpreting the sound waves reflected by nearby objects, a person trained to navigate by echolocation can identify the location and sometimes size of nearby objects, and use this information to steer around obstacles and travel from place to place.
The technique was developed and popularized by Daniel Kish. He is completely blind and taught himself to derive information about his surroundings by clicking his tongue and listening to the echo; using this technique,
he is able to ride a bike and hike in unknown wilderness. He has developed a little click-emitting device and trains other blind people in the use of echolocation.
Some blind people have described the phenomenon not as a learned method of navigation, but as an inherent and intuitive extra sense. For example, a blind
person could walk past a line of trees and feel a "pressure" at their side as they passed each tree. The cause of this would be the echo of the sound of
their footsteps, however they may not be consciously aware of this mechanism, only that the phenomenon exists and can often be relied upon to detect obstacles.
The most accomplished user of this technique is Ben Underwood. Diagnosed with retinal cancer at the age of two, he had his eyes removed at the age of three. He was taught about echolocation and now uses it to accomplish
such feats as running, rollerblading, and skateboarding. He does not use a white cane but is able to detect not only the position, size and frequently composition of objects near him, but sometimes their shape."
Lou, I like the description of snow as a blind man's fog. That's absolutely right.
One point should be made. The object has to be as high as your ears unless you are a very advanced user. This is why it doesn't pick up drop offs and curbs etc. Unless you are drunk and lieing in the gutter. &LT;grin>.
Bob

## Post 24 by mysticrain (Art is born of the observation and investigation of nature.) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 16:15:36

Lou, smart ass, grin jk. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to give away the fact that you're next. lol Smile

## Post 25 by Nage (Your father's friend's daughter's roommate's niece) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 16:32:46

Very interesting topic. I actually saw some guy on tv who was quite good at that stuff, I honestly thought it was a dud, or over exagerated for the sake of the cameras. As for me, I can tell when there're walls, cars, large people, trashcans, things of that nature. I can't do it if I'm walking and talking to a friend or goofing off, which is why I've mainly discarded it as useless for the most part. Furthermore, I don't think it'd be a good idea for me to walk around clicking my tongue or anything of the sort, so... I think I'll stick to my cane, although I can see it's uses. If I'm drunk in a gutter though, I don't think my perception of echos will be up to scratch hehehe...

## Post 26 by motifated (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 18:07:01

Bob, thanks for the reference. Did you find his webb address? He has a video of echolocation on it. Pretty amazing. I agree about prefering the cane, but there are times when you may be carrying stuff in both hands and arms, and can't use the cane. I only recommend this when you're in an area you know really, really well, or one that you're sure is free of drop-offs. Jen, did sound travel in that spacecraft, or did it just bounce from one of your ears to the other internally?
Lou

## Post 27 by motifated (I've now got the silver prolific poster award! wahoo!) on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 18:07:01

Bob, thanks for the reference. Did you find his webb address? He has a video of echolocation on it. Pretty amazing. I agree about prefering the cane, but there are times when you may be carrying stuff in both hands and arms, and can't use the cane. I only recommend this when you're in an area you know really, really well, or one that you're sure is free of drop-offs. Jen, did sound travel in that spacecraft, or did it just bounce from one of your ears to the other internally?
Lou

## Post 28 by Jess227 on Friday, 25-Aug-2006 19:27:16

I never really needed to use it. I only use it when I am in a dark area with no access to light. Just tap my cane since I can't whistle or snap my fingers and I'm able to listen for areas that sounds bounce off of.